F55: The red guys are really losing the market.

indiawilds said:
Is the camera some kind of Pepsi cola that the customer can't even understand what he is drinking? When you buy a second hand camera, put your lens, switch it on and do a test shoot to know if it works right. Why RED has to create a bureaucracy and control who owns their cameras? Is it not like going back to mediaval ages when people had to seek consent of the king for you know what. :)

RED's control reminds me of the real RED - the Chinese. The Chinese send the Pandas to other zoos on lease. They never sell pandas. Even babies born to the panadas in any country remain the property of China. They decided if a zoo can lease a panda to any other zoo. Is it true that if a person falls foul of RED then he/she has to return back the EPIC camera?
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That's not how electronics work though. Just cause it turns on doesn't mean that its working perfectly. Honestly, getting the camera checked and 90day recertified for $750 is a bargain. Cost me $1500 to get my iPanchros cleaned before I sold them.
 
morgan_moore said:
Sony have a minimal upgrade path unlike red, basically last years camera becomes a near worthless hunk (or at least 50% depreciated) and all its accessories too
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Well I think it's great that RED did get modularity down, though Sony billed the FS700 as having a 4K upgrade path ( sort of)
It should be nearly the time in product evolution that at the very least, the sensor module can be swappable over say a 3-4 year period ( about the time it takes to recover purchase price).
So whomsoever get the modularity right in the coming year or so, will survive, even if the are not always at the top of the curve.
 
As nice as the idea of upgradeable sensors is, I'm not sure it really holds out as a method for upgrading cameras beyond a single generation - the speed with which bandwidth, bit-depth and file-sizes keep expanding for imaging devices, means the pressure on internal camera processing boards and architecture is constantly being stretched to the limit - so the internals can't really keep up with the updated sensors anyway.

My suspicion is though, we're going to start to see some rapid dropoffs in new camera purchases in the near future - as cameras reach the point of diminishing returns for image quality and features, the motivation for people to upgrade falls considerably - this has been happening to a huge extent in DSLRs for stills photography recently, and I'm almost certain we'll see the same in video cameras.
 
very true that...
i don't think that any camera manufacturer is releasing a camera at the Red/Sony F55/Alexa Price range that isn't packed with the best and fastest components there are for the given money-bracket. therefor any change in sensor, DR, Compression etc needs ASICs changed as well, which we see is the case at RED.
Yet image quality of the cameras is up to a point where the "upgrade" to the next generation of cameras gets harder and harder to justify...
i.e.: i don't consider getting a f5 because at Slog's Iso2000 i can't get near shallow DOF up in WInter on the mountains without a matte box and ND's(which i often can't carry along). Even lighting can get tricky indoors...(no camera bashing - it's a great one!!)
4k does make sense occasionally in a 1080 world. so does HFR. so do 15 stops of DR. and global shutter.
8k? HHFR? 20Stops of DR?

where is the fine line when i have to admit that a d800 (or any dslr) with an external recorder would do the trick?

i think it all will boil down to ergonomics and workflow in the end. and one must admit that sony always tries to make a camera
that works in various situations/workflows... from raw/444 to xavc/xdcam...
 
It will continue. Marketing gimmickry has been going on for many moons: Beta, BetaSP, VHS, DVD, BluRay, HD, Full-frame, 4K, 5K, 6K, 10 stops, 12 stops, 14 stops, 20stops of DR, 880Mbps Codecs, low-light, raw, 444, 24 tracks of audio, 1500 fps, blah blah blah
Don't count on it ending any time soon. All of these are important to someone,but very few are simultaneously critical to majority. Each purchase is a compromise of some sort, even if it's spending too much. ;)
Thankfully, there's always something that exceeds the expectations of the majority of MY clients, so I'm safe.
 
Grug said:
As nice as the idea of upgradeable sensors is, I'm not sure it really holds out as a method for upgrading cameras beyond a single generation - the speed with which bandwidth, bit-depth and file-sizes keep expanding for imaging devices, means the pressure on internal camera processing boards and architecture is constantly being stretched to the limit - so the internals can't really keep up with the updated sensors anyway.
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Well I think its already proof enough that RED's sensor upgrade program (as noble as the ideas was) is not very realistic. Look at the Red One getting the MX sensor upgrade, then after that it was birth to Epic and Scarlet - what happened to "upgrading" the sensor in the RED ONE after MX? Dragon will be the same thing I suspect. It will work out for the Epic, not so much for the Scarlet and then RED will eventually release a new model.

Think of this this way, imagine RED is spending all their time, money and resources figuring out how to use an existing chassis to accomodate a new sensor that in itself needs newer circuit boards and processing components. What a puzzle to have. Would it make more sense to deliver on new features & functionality perhaps like a few built in ND filters, wireless integration to ipads or other mobile devices, or simultaneous recording of 4k and proxy files to the same card (like on the F55), global shutter, etc...


Grug said:
suspicion is though, we're going to start to see some rapid dropoffs in new camera purchases in the near future - as cameras reach the point of diminishing returns for image quality and features, the motivation for people to upgrade falls considerably - this has been happening to a huge extent in DSLRs for stills photography recently, and I'm almost certain we'll see the same in video cameras.
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The F55 is indeed the last camera I will have ever bought in my lifetime. I definitely don't need anything beyond 10 stops, neither do my clients. I have 90% of the features I need from a camera and no matter what it's never perfect anyway and you just need to "adapt". Camera sales will slouch and there has to be some very compelling reason to get into a camera in the year 2014 when ROI's are diminishing and everyone is now becoming equipped with "high-end capable cinema cameras: D16, BMC, RED, Sony, Ikonshop,.........
 
I've met Nate, and he's probably got at least another good 40 to 50 years in him. I think he will be getting many more cameras after the F55...
 
Ah good old PS Technik, almost brings tears to my eyes. Not in sadness in that I miss it so, but how painful it was working with something under 100 ISO !! :cool:
 
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