F55: The red guys are really losing the market.

Osslund said:
In two years time I bet 4k will be as common as 1080 so the whole Red vs the world will come to an end. I hope.
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2 years... no way. HD hasn't settled in yet 100%. Shooting in 4k and mastering in 4k that's another argument but delivering in 4k...well maybe it'll happen in Japan in 5 years time, but for the rest of the world, we are still living in SD broadcast TV.

And btw, people still love the footage I deliver with my trusty old HPX171. They say it's filmic and nicely soft:) This is my reality...
 
Admit One said:
Skyfall = 2.8K = IMAX = Academy Award Nomination = $1B gross.
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One does not at all follow another. IMAX was a blow-up that was properly done by tech people who know how to make blow-ups. The nomination was more of a reflection of set design/lighting than resolution and $1B gross is because people were excited for a new James Bond film and didn't realize how shoddy the script was.
 
Osslund said:
It gets scaled down to 1080 and stored that way as a master.
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This is my experience as well. I don't even know any projects mastered in 4k, let alone delivered in it. All of my deliverables are 1080p so I prefer how the C300/100 does it where it downscales up front in the sensor so that I don't have to waste time in post doing it.
 
KINOKS said:
2 years... no way. HD hasn't settled in yet 100%. Shooting in 4k and mastering in 4k that's another argument but delivering in 4k...well maybe it'll happen in Japan in 5 years time, but for the rest of the world, we are still living in SD broadcast TV.

And btw, people still love the footage I deliver with my trusty old HPX171. They say it's filmic and nicely soft:) This is my reality...
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Hehe, reality? This is a gear forum, people don't talk about reality here, they care about specs. /sarcasm] I do agree, my HPX370 is overkill many things I shoot because it will end up as 720p compressed for online, but it doesn't stop me from wanting something even better. Don't tell me about the future, no one will care about all the camera/lens tests (i.e. short films) people shot in 2013. /badjoke]

mcgeedigital said:
No, they shouldn't. It makes no business sense to try to compete in a market range that is already oversaturated at price point.
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Saturated by what? There are under-$10k s35 cameras about the size of a DSLR that can shoot 4K+ raw internally? I'm buying two!
 
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Kolor-Pikker said:
Saturated by what? There are under-$10k s35 cameras about the size of a DSLR that can shoot 4K+ raw internally? I'm buying two!
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http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-x-brain-only

Also I don't think anyone here is advocating 4k finishes. It's the advantages of 4k + (raw) that are a huge plus. The lack of rescaling penalties, post image stabilization, sharpness from down sampling, grabbing stills and blowing them up to print sizes, future-proofing. And aside from 4k raw there are many other wonderful things a system as modular as RED offers. Not everyone needs it in the work they do, but some do - some embrace it. And when there are very, very few penalties for shooting 4k on everything nowadays why not?
 
Gary Huff said:
IMAX was a blow-up that was properly done by tech people who know how to make blow-ups.
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Resolve does quite a good job, but so do several open source (free) software programs. I use Resolve, so a guess that makes me a proper tech person.

Put another way, Roger Deacons chose to shoot at 2.8K and proved conclusively that you don't need a 4k camera to gross $1B and get an Academy Award Nomination for cinematography.

Cheers.
 
I thought that was posted in another thread... you had to have long gray hair to win a best cinematography Oscar... not which camera you used... :grin:
 
KINOKS said:
2 years... no way. HD hasn't settled in yet 100%. Shooting in 4k and mastering in 4k that's another argument but delivering in 4k...well maybe it'll happen in Japan in 5 years time, but for the rest of the world, we are still living in SD broadcast TV.
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What I meant was that today we have many 4k cameras; Red, Sony, Canon, JVC and even 2-3k cameras like Alexa and BMDCC. So in the sense of 4k cameras being common yes I see two years as the time when atleast the second generation 2-4k cameras are here. But from a broadcast perspective 4k is a bit further into the future. I only delivered 1080 spots to TV2 Denmark so far but often do 720/1080 to be displayed on digital screens. In Sweden the only available channels broadcasting HD are commercialfree and I have the sense that image quality in the form of HD is not that desirable for commercial channels.
 
Admit One said:
Resolve does quite a good job, but so do several open source (free) software programs. I use Resolve, so a guess that makes me a proper tech person.

Put another way, Roger Deacons chose to shoot at 2.8K and proved conclusively that you don't need a 4k camera to gross $1B and get an Academy Award Nomination for cinematography.

Cheers.
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First, it's "Deakins". Second, again, Avatar shot at 1080p, grossed almost 3x as much as Skyfall, and didn't get an Academy Award nomination for cinematography... it WON the Academy Award for cinematography.

And let's not forget that films shot on a DVX100 won the Best Cinematography award at Sundance... twice. A DVX100. A 4:3, standard-def, 4:1:1 camera.

People who argue you "need" 4K are -- well, let's put it this way. Maybe THEY "need" 4K, but they shouldn't go around telling other people what they "need" because they're just plain wrong.
 
Admit One said:
I use Resolve, so a guess that makes me a proper tech person.
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Not actually. Have you done a 2.8k blowup to 70mm and see it projected in IMAX? Unless you have, and have the evidence to show that it did a good job, then you actually cannot say that.
 
bgundu said:
I would hardly think that one conversation with a producer can give you any insight to REDs future market share.
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Yeah, you you got it there bud, my experience as a whole stems from one 2 minute conversation with a producer. Small minds...

Another aspect of my post that warrants much more in depth conversation is going under the radar here and I have yet to see much talk about it anywhere else. Too bad that the "ego" has to take over in internet forums as a whole.

Anyway, the fact that the perception of what top quality is, is changing, is the big issue here. Not your perception but theirs, which is what counts.

Too much too soon I guess.
 
William_Robinette said:
http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-x-brain-only

Also I don't think anyone here is advocating 4k finishes. It's the advantages of 4k + (raw) that are a huge plus. The lack of rescaling penalties, post image stabilization, sharpness from down sampling, grabbing stills and blowing them up to print sizes, future-proofing. And aside from 4k raw there are many other wonderful things a system as modular as RED offers. Not everyone needs it in the work they do, but some do - some embrace it. And when there are very, very few penalties for shooting 4k on everything nowadays why not?
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I agree, 4K is great to work on for technical reasons, but it'll be a while before it makes sense to finish 4K. Also, why the link to the Scarlet? It's less than $10k, yes, but it's just for a box with a sensor in it. What I meant was a complete pop a lens and battery on and shoot camera, not an erector set.

Currently, this "saturated" market segment consists of:
1DC - $12k a bit much; 4K but no Raw.
BMC - $3k; m43 sensor and only 2.5k.
KineRaw - $8k?; currently in development limbo.
BT Red One - $3k; big/heavy and an erector set; limited quantity since it's discontinued.
Scarlet - $8k; you'll spend twice as much to make it work.

We have the technology... If BM also made a $6k camera with a bigger 4k sensor in it, and make it not look like a monitor, I'd order one yesterday.
 
Kolor-Pikker said:
I agree, 4K is great to work on for technical reasons, but it'll be a while before it makes sense to finish 4K. Also, why the link to the Scarlet? It's less than $10k, yes, but it's just for a box with a sensor in it. What I meant was a complete pop a lens and battery on and shoot camera, not an erector set.

Currently, this "saturated" market segment consists of:
1DC - $12k a bit much; 4K but no Raw.
BMC - $3k; m43 sensor and only 2.5k.
KineRaw - $8k?; currently in development limbo.
BT Red One - $3k; big/heavy and an erector set; limited quantity since it's discontinued.
Scarlet - $8k; you'll spend twice as much to make it work.

We have the technology... If BM also made a $6k camera with a bigger 4k sensor in it, and make it not look like a monitor, I'd order one yesterday.
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Did you forget, or ignore the Ikonoskop A-Cam D II?
 
I don't think RED has lost any market, in fact I'd say they have it cornered when it comes to independently owned and operated cameras. RED has offered high end tools for high end results since 2006, they have a strong following hardly giving anyone a reason to switch gear. Let's face it, RED is still CHEAP for what it is and with recent price changes now so more than ever before.

Having said that I think we might start to see a small turning point and a little loss in market share as newer 35mm digital cameras start to emerge. 2/3" broadcast has shifted over to 35mm and cameras like C300/500 F3/F5 heck even F55 have long longevity ahead of them in my opinion. But knowing RED and their boldness and attitude who knows what they have planned up their sleeve and surely they might do what ever it takes to stay in the game.

Personally I think RED demolishes itself looking to constantly be the latest and greatest at something, they should look at expanding their line of cameras into other markets outside of "cinema" over developing a 20 stop sensor which to me is a complete waste of time.
 
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