The RED full-meal-deal?

Haakon said:
Lensmith, the problem I have with your posts is that you are making blanket statements as if they apply to everyone. As much as a reality shock as it may be for you, the truth is that we all have different needs and have different ways of addressing our individual situations.

When you say something like,

you're not only being pompous and condescending, but declaring your opinion as fact - which is problematic, especially when it doesn't hold much validity in the first place. I've already shown how the camera can be perfectly usable without needing to spend ridiculous amounts of money, so your opinion really is irrelevant to me anyway. I just think it's good to inform others that they do have options, and that RED will be effective within a wide variety of budgets. You can customize to taste.

Perhaps you'd find better results if you spent more time shooting material and less time pointing fingers and waiting around for others to finish their projects "with a confident smile on your face." When the time comes, I think you'll find that your smile is going to fade rather quickly.
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More time shooting material?

Well...you don't know how much I work. If you did...:)

My confident smile will be there no matter what. The price of that camera, no matter what you do or don't put on it to make it usable for any situation, is going to be well above twenty grand. I and many others accept that. Others...will learn in time. Of that I have no doubt.

If my confidence bothers you it may be due to the difference in our years of experience.:)

It seems a price above twenty grand somehow bothers YOU to the point you can not accept that fact...but we all have different budgets to live with, depending on the project.

I guess my only gripe is hearing people promote Red as if it's the next, inexpensive version of a camera for indy doc folks. It will be if those indy doc folks have money to buy or rent a Red...if and when it becomes a real product available to consumers.

Until then, you and I can trade remarks and play "what if". The only thing backing up either side is what has and hasn't been truly proven about this camera. Truth be told...nothing has been proven because there is no camera as yet. They couldn't even get an operational unit for NAB. For someone to think a company will one year not even have a product to show at NAB and then the next, have cameras out on the market for sale to the general public is, again, unrealistic. At best, Red will be shown at next years NAB and after another year or two, and those who have paid their thousand bucks to get in line, will have a chance to finish paying off their purchase...if they can afford it.

Time will tell...:)
 
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btw, gibby..

you are our light.. we the "poor" people we are with you..

do you know why?

because a EFP or a ENG-style (whatever) can be OUR deal..

i believe barry has other view also because his market is another one..

and i believe RED won't just be a revolution to the above-the-line but also to the below-the-line people and there are too much interests around..

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gibby, we need to vote you for RED customer rep..
 
I don't know how qualified you are as a camera operator/director or other Lensmith, but I'm willing to bet Jim Jannard has a better grip on business than any person that visits this forum. That's not to blow smoke up his arse... the fact his bank balance is the same as everyone here put together and then some is evidence enough. To suggest that you, me or anyone else knows business better than the folks at Red is at best naive.

It seems a bit strange that they would offer up so much evidence that the camera will be shipping in March/April of next year if your type of prediction was correct. It's a surefire way to make yourself a laughing stock if their camera was going to be delayed for a further year or two. I'll happily admit that it may be delayed, they've always tried to remain flexible. But they've also told us the specs will be locked down in December and I would bet that any delays would be a matter of weeks or months but not years.

This whole conversation about people thinking that $17,500 being the final cost and being wrong is a bit odd to me... I would consider myself an amateur compared to many of the people here but I would never be so naive as to believe that I won't need to spend more than that to have a usable system and I honestly can't believe there is anyone else here that considers it either. But the fact remains that if you had a tight budget you CAN use SLR lenses with the camera and given it will possibly have 64gb memory built in then you could be up and running out of the box for very little more than the $17,500. It will come with a view finder of some sort, a battery and some storage add a nikon to that and you CAN begin shooting stuff... whether what you shoot is any good is another matter but it doesn't remove the fact. I however would look to get a whole bunch of extra equipment and recognise that I'll be paying in excess of $25,000.
 
Lensmith said:
For someone to think a company will one year not even have a product to show at NAB and then the next, have cameras out on the market for sale to the general public is, again, unrealistic. At best, Red will be shown at next years NAB and after another year or two, and those who have paid their thousand bucks to get in line, will have a chance to finish paying off their purchase...if they can afford it.

Time will tell...:)
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LMAO. Wanna make a bet ? Seriously. I'll bet you x amount of dollars (we can PM the amount) that this camera doesn't take 3 years to get to market. Otherwise, you've got a mouthful of foot there lensmith, IMO. Not to say you're not entertaining...


RED #'s rebel with a clue
 
D_and_G said:
LMAO. Wanna make a bet ? Seriously. I'll bet you x amount of dollars (we can PM the amount) that this camera doesn't take 3 years to get to market. Otherwise, you've got a mouthful of foot there lensmith, IMO. Not to say you're not entertaining...


RED #'s rebel with a clue
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Sure, just for fun, I'll make a bet if it's as the above poster, Homersapian, hopes. That Red will be shipped by March or April of next year.

It's not going to happen!

Of that I have no doubt.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in the system or that I think the camera is junk.

There's no way they can get production up in that short amount of time when they couldn't even get a working model to this years NAB.

I am not making this into some personal attack against any other poster here...but I am confident that no cameras will be shipped to buyers by March or April.

Put money on it if you wish.

Mark my name and this post here if it somehow makes you feel better.

Two to three years, as I stated before, is reasonable. Especially if the buyer is expecting a product that has full customer support.

Something tells me I wont' be the one with a foot in their mouth though when March or April rolls around.:)

Again, this is just for fun and I mean no personal disrespect to anyone here. Just a fun little bet between us.:)
 
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I think it's realistic to expect there MIGHT be delays. But honestly, I think these guys will deliver by July, 2007 if not sooner. Assuming there are no major setbacks in the next couple of months, I would imagine they could get the manufacturing process going fairly quickly, and have units delivered between April and July. 2-3 years from now? I doubt that. That would be a major setback, that would cost them to much in PR. This thing will get delivered in 2007.

Steve
 
They've stated the first ones will be dispatched in March or April of next year... not every single one ordered so far. Given Jim owns the factories that'll be building the thing in, exactly what do you think will be so hard to begin producing them once the whole design is locked down - 3 to 4 months in advance? Tooling doesn't take that long and the software to come with Red will be upgradeable (including I believe the firmware of the camera). So even if RedCine isn't 100% complete but usable with future upgrades penned in then you are basing your judgement purely on the fact that other companies have let release dates slip and not basing it on any kind of evidence that they are having trouble with production??? Just seems like you want to make a point so that should the production be late for whatever reason you can return to this post and say "See I told you all" and that seems a bit pathetic to be honest m8.

I know for one that I won't care two hoots for this post come March/April next year whether or not you are right or wrong. Anyway this is getting off of the point of this thread, we were discussing the packages for Red out of the box and how people might differ for different uses, lets get back to that, it's far more interesting.
 
Homersapien said:
..... and given it will possibly have 64gb memory built in then you could be up and running out of the box for very little more than the $17,500.
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I must have missed a post somewhere, when did the 64gb of internal storage appear?
 
I remember reading about it in another post recently, I think it was something that was hinted at at IBC by someone, can't really remember now... perhaps I misread it, I'll try and find it if I can lol
 
Lensmith said:
Two to three years, as I stated before, is reasonable. Especially if the buyer is expecting a product that has full customer support.
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Ok. Tell you what - I'll bet you a dvxuser t-shirt that RED starts shipping units to reservation holders in 2007. Or I'll even bet you an ASC shirt, if that makes you feel more comfortable :grin:

Frankly, I think my odds are really great...
:beer:


RED # rebel with a clue
 
Homersapien said:
They've stated the first ones will be dispatched in March or April of next year... not every single one ordered so far. Given Jim owns the factories that'll be building the thing in, exactly what do you think will be so hard to begin producing them once the whole design is locked down - 3 to 4 months in advance? Tooling doesn't take that long and the software to come with Red will be upgradeable (including I believe the firmware of the camera). So even if RedCine isn't 100% complete but usable with future upgrades penned in then you are basing your judgement purely on the fact that other companies have let release dates slip and not basing it on any kind of evidence that they are having trouble with production??? Just seems like you want to make a point so that should the production be late for whatever reason you can return to this post and say "See I told you all" and that seems a bit pathetic to be honest m8.

I know for one that I won't care two hoots for this post come March/April next year whether or not you are right or wrong. Anyway this is getting off of the point of this thread, we were discussing the packages for Red out of the box and how people might differ for different uses, lets get back to that, it's far more interesting.
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You seem to be taking this a little too personally. But maybe I'm mistaken.

Whatever the case, I do know manufacturing as well as my camera skills. If they were as close as you'd hoped to having a final product, they would have had something, anything even close to a working model, on display at NAB. They couldn't do it.

Let's be real for a moment. The WORST thing Red could do would be to rush this camera into production. They need this thing to work as perfectly as possible from the get-go. What kills most companies is not how fast they get their brand new product to market. It's how they support that product once it is on the market. No product goes out without having problems. None. Whether it's Sony, Panasonic or even Red...but Red has never done this before. Sure, one of the guys has experience making sunglasses but product support for sunglasses is just a wee bit different than product support for a camera of this nature. To think just because they made and designed some sunglasses translates into success developing and marketing a camera...well THAT is naive.

What is going to count here is not just the "new" technology purported to be a part of Red. It will be the whole package of service needed to make this camera truly a success. I think, with time, Red will happen. Sadly for others, the real world issues of development and production will not happen as fast as they would like. Even then, having a successful product does not end the moment the customer walks out the door with the first production run of a camera or any other piece of camera gear. There are still many hurdles to overcome. Each and every one of them are as important as the initial development of the product itself and to ignore or rush past those hurdles can be fatal.

This is not some five thousand dollar HVX developed off the hard lessons of earlier models from the same company. These folks are in a whole new world and have no track record at all when it comes to delivering a product of this nature. They have a lot to learn...and they will learn...but it won't be a short six month course ending in guaranteed success.
 
D_and_G said:
Ok. Tell you what - I'll bet you a dvxuser t-shirt that RED starts shipping units to reservation holders in 2007. Or I'll even bet you an ASC shirt, if that makes you feel more comfortable :grin:

Frankly, I think my odds are really great...
:beer:


RED # rebel with a clue
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I'll go along with that!

I can always use another good shirt!:)

Let's stay in touch and see what happens!
 
Lensmith, considering no one really knows for sure when this camera will deliver, it's tough to argue the point with you. Besides I have nothing to base my opinions on anyway, since I've never purchased a camera from these guys (either has anyone else, but you know what I mean). So, in the end, it's possible you could be right.

But what I have to go on is they have been great to deal with so far. They seem commited to this project as much as we could hope for. And Jim really seems to want one in his hands as soon as possible, so he can go shoot with it. And from what I've heard he loves to shoot. So, I think he has assembled a skillful team of people that have worked hard to design this camera to be of uncompromising quality. You mention him not showing it at NAB. I would guess that's because they would rather perfect it, than show up with something that is not quite there yet. And perhaps from a secrecy perspective, they would rather perfect it in the confines of their own labs. But again, I don't know anything, and we could all be wrong on this, but my hunch is they will deliver by July.

Steve
 
Also, I wouldn't necessarily underestimate their manufacturing ability. I think it was mentioned on another thread, that the manufacturing would be a lot quicker than it might seem. I'll try to find that thread.

Steve
 
Here's a quote from Jim.

"FYI, we can change this design 20 more times (probably will) and still be on time. If we need any excuse (hope not) for being late, it won't be the industrial design. It will be in the complexity of the board designs and capabilities that we plan to offer. No worries as of today.

Yes to black body. Yes to battery/drive being hung low. Yes to battery/drive being behind either high, level or low.

The rods are standard 19mm in the proper position for matte boxes, etc. 15mm can be added to the front if necessary.

Look at NAB designs to now. That has been only 5 months. We still have 5 months (or so) to go. A lot can happen.

This project sure is fun."

Jim
Last edited by Jannard : 09-18-2006 at 11:49 PM.
 
"We fully believe that we can assemble several (maybe 20-30) cameras in December for shakedown"

20-30 camera's sounds pretty good to me for shakedowns ( testing) ..
IMO it seems many camera's will be going out to persons ( DP/rental house/studio) for testing ...
 
stevesherrick said:
Here's a quote from Jim.

"FYI, we can change this design 20 more times (probably will) and still be on time. If we need any excuse (hope not) for being late, it won't be the industrial design. It will be in the complexity of the board designs and capabilities that we plan to offer. No worries as of today.

Yes to black body. Yes to battery/drive being hung low. Yes to battery/drive being behind either high, level or low.

The rods are standard 19mm in the proper position for matte boxes, etc. 15mm can be added to the front if necessary.

Look at NAB designs to now. That has been only 5 months. We still have 5 months (or so) to go. A lot can happen.

This project sure is fun."

Jim
Last edited by Jannard : 09-18-2006 at 11:49 PM.
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I've always admired Mr. Jannard and continue to do so.

It is the complexity of the board designs which is at the base of my disbelief they will be able to meet their deadline but...that does not mean I don't believe in the technology, nor the desire of those doing the planning, to deliver a good product. I just think it's going to take much longer than they anticipate.

They've never designed and delivered an electronic product to the masses in the past. I know how complex board work is. Especially when it is a new design built for a specific "new" product like this sensor. It's not like this stuff is sitting on the shelves waiting to be put into whatever camera someone decides to design. Boards are designed for a specific camera even if it's "old" technology apart from the sensor.

I actually think Red would have more success selling their sensor to an existing company rather than trying to keep it all to themselves but...that's just my opinion. In some ways they remind me of the smaller market film makers who want to do it all and, in the end, their product suffers from a lack of professional follow through built over years of experience designing and producing similar products.

This is the first time they've built a camera ever. Let alone trying to sell it to others who have high expectations. They do not need unhappy customers for something so new.

I wish them the best and look forward to seeing a real working model, ready for sale to the public, in the future.
 
Haakon said:
Just so we're on the same page, Barry, I wasn't inferring that other companies are raping their customers because of what their cameras cost in comparison to RED. If that's how you interpreted my post, I can see why it would seem harsh.
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Yeah, that's how I took it; with your post now it puts it in a different light.

Part of the reason people think Red is "vaporware" is because "the other companies can't do it, so what makes him think he can?" That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of. He's not doing what they are, and because of that, he can. I fully expect that if Panasonic or Sony or Thomson decided they wanted to compete for this same type of business, they could build a comparable product. But could they price it the same? I don't think so; their business model is very different and there has to be margin for the dealers and the marketing expenses and the parts department and the service techs and the field sales reps and the field technicians and all that.

What I find insulting is how companies price their own cameras in relation to each other. Take the new XDCAM HD models from Sony. The "higher end" model costs $9,000 more and all you get are variable framerates and a pair of HD-SDI jacks. To me, that's a slap in the face.
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Oh, trust me I'm with you there. But you forgot one other thing: on the 350 they have a gold CineAlta badge; on the 330 it's cheap silver. So when you spend your nine grand you get a gold badge, surely that helps you choke down the price difference?

The one that made me furious was the 386SX processor from Intel. They decided to offer a cheaper processor by doing away with the math co-processor, right? And if you wanted a math co-processor, you could always buy a 387SX and put it in the slot next to your 386SX. And they sold these cheaper than the full 386. But as it turns out -- they were the same silicon! The 386 and the 386SX were the same chip, they just "disabled" the math side of it! And a 387SX was the same 386 chip but they "disabled" the main CPU side, leaving only the math co-processor! (I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it, but the gist remains the same). That was an offensive marketing strategy, and they don't offer "SX" processors anymore thankfully.

There will always be a premium for the hot product though; a "demand" premium. Look at Intel processor pricing for the Core 2 Duo; the price increases for the bottom three or four speeds are relatively modest, but for the fastest one it's prohibitively expensive. People who want the fastest will apparently pay extra for it, even if that extra is not necessarily reflected in the underlying manufacturing cost (as we discussed before).

Additionally, I think the end result will definitely have an impact on the market whether Red gains "mass market share" or not. I truly can't see how a company like Panasonic is going to be able to command $60,000 for a Varicam any longer when they're still using 2/3" chips and topping out at 720p
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That's already happened though. There's a $14,000 rebate on the VariCam right now. And the HDX900 (which does 720p and 1080i and 1080p, but doesn't do VFR) is priced at $27,950 IIRC. It's basically Panasonic's answer to the F900 but at 1/4 the price. And the HPX2000 is the P2 version and I think it's going to be $20k or so. Last year a standard-def SDX900 cost more than that. So I think the effect you're talking about is already happening.
 
Lensmith, only problem I have with your argument is that you make it sound like they are a team of unexperienced people. My guess is they have people that are well versed in designing camera systems. Otherwise, I don't think they would have pursued this. I think even the best designers, the best engineers run into problems. But the good ones find solutions and deliver exceptional products. I'm counting on them having the good ones. Again, maybe I'll be wrong, but where's the evidence either way.

Steve
 
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