The Panasonic G1HD | GH-1 Video Mode : A Real Video Mode

After lots of testing, my favorite mode on this camera is by far MJPEG @ 720p. It never breaks up and somehow looks better than the AVCHD modes. Weird, I wonder if they made a compression engine mistake in the 1080/24p mode? It breaks up way faster than it should compared to other AVCHD cameras and doesnt seem to actually hit 17Mbs?

I actually would love a 720/24p or 1080/24p MJPEG mode, gotta love the quicktime wrappers!
 
capice said:
Yes I did but i´m not an expert in it (pal land). I have to depend on what After Effects is doing for me automatically.

It´s the number 00008. Here is a snapshot:



It´s not really bad, but what about 00002 (1/50)?:
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If youre doing it in aftereffects there WILL be artifacts on preview. those are the bad kind of artifacts which is not present when you render out

Im still downloading the raw footages.
 
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hunter richards said:
After lots of testing, my favorite mode on this camera is by far MJPEG @ 720p. It never breaks up and somehow looks better than the AVCHD modes. Weird, I wonder if they made a compression engine mistake in the 1080/24p mode? It breaks up way faster than it should compared to other AVCHD cameras and doesnt seem to actually hit 17Mbs?

I actually would love a 720/24p or 1080/24p MJPEG mode, gotta love the quicktime wrappers!
Click to expand...

Given how good people are saying the 720-60P mode is on this camera it just KILLS ME that there isn't a 720-24P mode!

Hey Panasonic, can we either get a higher bitrate on 1080-24P or at least a 720-24P mode? Pretty please?
 
the excitement around this camera is crazy. all the people who used to email me about the D90 are asking me about the GH1 now. I just send them to this thread. some high-profile people in the indie film world have their eyes on this one. could be huge.
 
hunter richards said:
After lots of testing, my favorite mode on this camera is by far MJPEG @ 720p. It never breaks up and somehow looks better than the AVCHD modes. Weird, I wonder if they made a compression engine mistake in the 1080/24p mode? It breaks up way faster than it should compared to other AVCHD cameras and doesnt seem to actually hit 17Mbs?

I actually would love a 720/24p or 1080/24p MJPEG mode, gotta love the quicktime wrappers!
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MJPEG is an I-frame MPEG-2 like protocol. It is being recorded at nearly 32Mb/s according to the manual. The AVCHD 'should' be significantly better and the back to back clips on imaging-resource.com seem to indicate it is. However the the MJPEG does show some detail better.

Now if they had 1080p24 with a 1/48 shutter recording at 32Mb/s it would have been very impressive.
 
Kholi said:
The GH-1 in 720/60 is unfukwitable. There's no way in hell I'd trade it for an HV20 unless, for some really strange reason, I thought you HAD to shoot everything at 1080.
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Regarding shooting at 720/60p, I know you said elsewhere it doesn't matter to you, but the uneven cadence of 60->24 conversion bothers me. It won't show in static shots, of course, but anything that has smooth predictable motion (like a car moving at a constant speed in the bg) will appear to "skip" because of the uneven cadence. Maybe you don't see, and that's fine. I see it though.

Shooting 60 for 24 is like the first HDV Sony (Z1U I think) that made bullsh*t 24fps from it's 60i sensor.

Then, there's the problem of the shutter speed, that should really be 1/48th, not 1/60th.

I guess if one was really motivated, you could get the PAL version of the camera and shoot 720/50p at 1/50th and conform 25p to 24p (and do the 4% audio slowdown in post).

Also, 1280x720 is a downgrade from 1440x1080... which is already a downgrade from full HD... these are not steps in the right direction.

And, as I mentionned in another thread, at least the HV20 has manual audio gain, a headphone jack for monitoring and on-screen metering. It also has a live HDMI output to bypass the HDV compression should you have an AJA KiPro or anything that records HDMI. It has a live composite output that doesn't go black when you hit "record", so you can monitor the darn thing when it's on a jib or anywhere inaccesible.

Finally, I find the color/gamma of the HV20 more "natural" and less "crushed". BUT, I will admit that these are probably easy to work around using the GH1s contrast/saturation/WB controls and some post color correction (admitting that the codec will survive CC).

For the people that said "You don't like it, don't buy it"... well, that's a very good plan, thanks.

Regarding the GH1 being "amazing for the price", let me remind you that the HV30 is 750$ on Amazon, including the f1.8-f3.0 43mm-436mm (35mm equiv) lens... (ok... ok... it's not removable, and no meaningful DOF control and a really shi*ty bokeh... true.)

The whole point of the GH1 being so cool was to finally have CONTROL. CONTROL over DOF, control over shutter speed, control over ISO... but now, it seems you can do whatever you want, EXCEPT:

- shoot full HD
- shoot real 24p
- shoot below 1/60th shutter
- pan too quickly
- shoot in a park, or anything that has lots of leaves and grass
- shoot buildings wide angle cuz aliasing will show it's head
- record on-board audio cuz you can't monitor it
- apply lots of CC in post cuz the codec won't survive
- shoot on a crane or jib cuz there's no video output while recording.

I *really* wanted to ditch my HV20 to get interchangeable lenses and DOF control... looks like I'll have to wait for the GH2 or whoever actually finally puts together a real camcorder with interchangeable photo lenses and a large sensor.

-- Xavier

PS: For those wondering why you get some frames that are clean and some that look crappy in pans, I'll bet a dollar that the encoder gets the video stream AFTER the pulldown and gets really confused when it hits those "half" frames.
 
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xbourque said:
Regarding shooting at 720/60p, I know you said elsewhere it doesn't matter to you, but the uneven cadence of 60->24 conversion bothers me. It won't show in static shots, of course, but anything that has smooth predictable motion (like a car moving at a constant speed in the bg) will appear to "skip" because of the uneven cadence. Maybe you don't see, and that's fine. I see it though.

Shooting 60 for 24 is like the first HDV Sony (Z1U I think) that made bullsh*t 24fps from it's 60i sensor.

Then, there's the problem of the shutter speed, that should really be 1/48th, not 1/60th.

I guess if one was really motivated, you could get the PAL version of the camera and shoot 720/50p at 1/50th and conform 25p to 24p (and do the 4% audio slowdown in post).

Also, 1280x720 is a downgrade from 1440x1080... which is already a downgrade from full HD... these are not steps in the right direction.

And, as I mentionned in another thread, at least the HV20 has manual audio gain, a headphone jack for monitoring and on-screen metering. It also has a live HDMI output to bypass the HDV compression should you have an AJA KiPro or anything that records HDMI. It has a live composite output that doesn't go black when you hit "record", so you can monitor the darn thing when it's on a jib or anywhere inaccesible.

Finally, I find the color/gamma of the HV20 more "natural" and less "crushed". BUT, I will admit that these are probably easy to work around using the GH1s contrast/saturation/WB controls and some post color correction (admitting that the codec will survive CC).

For the people that said "You don't like it, don't buy it"... well, that's a very good plan, thanks.

Regarding the GH1 being "amazing for the price", let me remind you that the HV30 is 540$ on Amazon, including the f1.8-f3.0 43mm-436mm (35mm equiv) lens... (ok... ok... it's not removable, and no meaningful DOF control and a really shi*ty bokeh... true.)

The whole point of the GH1 being so cool was to finally have CONTROL. CONTROL over DOF, control over shutter speed, control over ISO... but now, it seems you can do whatever you want, EXCEPT:

- shoot full HD
- shoot real 24p
- shoot below 1/60th shutter
- pan too quickly
- shoot in a park, or anything that has lots of leaves and grass
- shoot buildings wide angle cuz aliasing will show it's head
- record on-board audio cuz you can't monitor it
- apply lots of CC in post cuz the codec won't survive
- shoot on a crane or jib cuz there's no video output while recording.

I *really* wanted to ditch my HV20 to get interchangeable lenses and DOF control... looks like I'll have to wait for the GH2 or whoever actually finally puts together a real camcorder with interchangeable photo lenses and a large sensor.

-- Xavier

PS: For those wondering why you get some frames that are clean and some that look crappy in pans, I'll bet a dollar that the encoder gets the video stream AFTER the pulldown and gets really confused when it hits those "half" frames.
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Despite pretty much everything (aside from the colors) being respectably accurate...

I still wouldn't trade it for an HF Whoever. I'd rather work around to get 24P then be stuck with:

-tiny sensor
-fixed lens
-semi-decent lowlight performance
-An obvious Video Camera formfactor
-No DOF control


That's just me.
 
hunter richards said:
After lots of testing, my favorite mode on this camera is by far MJPEG @ 720p. It never breaks up and somehow looks better than the AVCHD modes. Weird, I wonder if they made a compression engine mistake in the 1080/24p mode? It breaks up way faster than it should compared to other AVCHD cameras and doesnt seem to actually hit 17Mbs?

I actually would love a 720/24p or 1080/24p MJPEG mode, gotta love the quicktime wrappers!
Click to expand...

I did some testing with the D90, it averages about 15Mbps which works out to be about 80k per frame. I compressed some stills in photoshop and compared them. 80k is quite poor, lots of artifacts. 160k is quite good with very little in the way of noticeable artifacts. From what you've said the GH1 appears to be compressing to about 110k per frame @ 26Mbps. The D90 is variable bit-rate so sometimes it's only recording 7Mbps. From what you guys have told me the GH1 is constant bit-rate which is a big improvement. 240k looks very good and is hard to distinguish from the original raw image. Panasonic could make the mjpeg 24p @ 26Mbps which would work out to be 140k per frame. If they could push it to 45Mbps it would look almost as good as raw. The least they could do is make the mjpeg 25p for the majority of us in the PAL world.

Even though mjpeg is dated and less efficient than the mpeg codecs I much prefer it. It's a filmmaker friendly codec with 24 real individually compressed frames. There's no interlaced pulldown bullshit.
 
xbourque said:
The whole point of the GH1 being so cool was to finally have CONTROL. CONTROL over DOF, control over shutter speed, control over ISO... but now, it seems you can do whatever you want, EXCEPT:

- shoot full HD
- shoot real 24p
- shoot below 1/60th shutter
- pan too quickly
- shoot in a park, or anything that has lots of leaves and grass
- shoot buildings wide angle cuz aliasing will show it's head
- record on-board audio cuz you can't monitor it
- apply lots of CC in post cuz the codec won't survive
- shoot on a crane or jib cuz there's no video output while recording.

.
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It still not definitive yet but that list is exactly what i've been thinking myself. I was so
looking forward to this cam, now I think I'll wait to see what comes. Theres just too many compromises just for DOF on what may be a lousy codec.

Kholi if you make it shine I'm wiling to change my mind. I got my fingers crossed.
 
We are in a time when things are happening, and happening FAST. When the HVX200 came out, we knew major advancements weren't coming in years. Now, a new potentionaly revolutionary camera can be released by in a period of MONTHS that can obliterate the previously released cameras in performance and functions. We have a lot more players in this game, folks. Its no longer JVC, Sony, Panasonic, and Canon, but Nikon, RED, Samsung, Pentax, Sanyo, etc.

Exciting times! It is true that we are talking about tools here. There will definitely be someone shooting award winning stuff with this camera. Heck, someone won a prestigious short film festival with a cell phone camera. But I sincerely feel the revolution is right around the corner. The GH1, as well as the 5d Mark II, are a small glimpse of that. The next round of cameras are the ones that trully will raise the bar...
 
panasonic is teaching the low budget guys

panasonic is teaching the low budget guys

panasonic intentionally introduced this codec break in fast motions to teach people how to do cinema... even in the fast actions in movies the camera moves steady... LOL
 
panasonic intentionally introduced this codec break in fast motions to teach people how to do cinema... even in the fast actions in movies the camera moves steady... LOL
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Exactly. There is a method to the madness. I keep saying don't pan like a maniac for a reason. You have to know what your camera can and can't do. Plan and exucute your shots accordingly. Maybe in the camera's next generation you will be able to pan to your hearts content, it looks like not with this one!

I actually would love a 720/24p or 1080/24p MJPEG mode, gotta love the quicktime wrappers!
Click to expand...

I am sure this can be achieved with a firmare upgrade or with hacking. It shouldn't be too big of a problem I would think. Also maybe get 1080i24PA.
 
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I suppose they also want to teach you a good, hard lesson about shooting wide angles and detail...

I'm still happy with the camera. I'm gonna go one more round with 1080/24 and see what happens tomorrow.


Uploading some footage.
 
Kholi said:
-tiny sensor
-fixed lens
-No DOF control
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Tiny sensor, fixed lens and no DOF control are all pretty much the same argument: the possibility of shallow DOF. In fact, it's the only argument really valid in favour of the GH1 so far.


Kholi said:
-semi-decent lowlight performance
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Check this video I shot a year ago when I got an HV20 (night time bits start at 1:27):

http://vimeo.com/774073

Compared to the stuff I've seen so far from the GH1, I wouldn't call it night and day... pun intended. :-) (Also note that this video has the camera *moving around*... not on sticks like all the lowlight tests we've seen so far from the GH1)

Kholi said:
-An obvious Video Camera formfactor
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Hmm... not sure I understand your point. The SLR shape is supposed to be stealthier? More professional looking? Agreed the HVs look like plasticky little toys... but sometimes it helps to look like a tourist. :-)

BTW, I am not really suggesting that people overlook the GH1 and go buy an HV30 instead. I'm just saying that a lot of HV* users who want something better are looking at the GH1... and that it's definitely NOT an upgrade in all departments.

But hey... just like everybody here, I'm real eager to see what you have in store for us Kholi. Who knows, maybe I'll be so impressed that I'll be willing to overlook all the limitations of the GH1 and I'll run out and buy one after all.


-- X
 
That footage from Watch Impress's review of the GH1 was interesting, because they presented the same scene in lots of different modes. So I decided to do a 1:1 comparison to see how the 1080 mode holds up to the two 720 modes.

Someone also posting a link to footage from an HF10 at the same site to illustrate that 17mbps AVCHD can actually look very nice. The HF10 is a $800ish consumer camera that's over a year old, and while the footage here was in its 17mbps mode, it also has a 24mbps mode above that. I'm not suggesting that the HF10 is a better camera, just that its codec holds up much, much better.

If someone wants to host uncompressed PNG versions, let me know and send them to you.
 

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My stuff's not gonna impress anyone beyond what Philip and Hunter have shown. In fact, it's not going to come near what they've shown because they've got much more talent than I do. And steadier hands (you'll see what I mean.) The real impression will be made when someone shoots narrative or actual commercial work, with great sound, great lighting and great execution.

That's always the REAL tell-tale for any camera. We can all bench it as much as we want, speculate on what's better but in the end every single one of these things have and HAVE had limitations from the outset and they're no worse than they were when the DVX100 first hit, and that didn't stop several successful entities from producing content that pushed the medium and themselves right into a career. Please, let us not forget that infamous Cinematography Award for a Feature Image acquired on a DVX100.

And every time someone shows that these limitations can and will be overcome by simply DOING.

The only variable, honestly, is the trade-off.

For the HV20's you sacrifice lots, the trade-off is a cheap camera that can get 24P done. Add an adapter and it's a little better.

For the MKii the trade-off for having to work with 30P and no manual controls, once you've got a system, is incredible lookin' Full Frame footage. From which you can pluck stills from if you wanted.

The GH-1 has a hyper-similar trade-off. Where if you want to use 1080/24P then you will deal with pulldown, compression artifacts and who knows what else. If you deal with 720/60P then you have workarounds to get to 24P.


We had good enough back at the DVX100, we got great enough with the HVX200, we have MORE than enough with 35mm Adapters, RED, VDSLRs and such.

Small rant. But now I'm tired of pixel-peeping, I've said my piece and only want to find something decent to shoot with the camera because I loves it.
 
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I'm down with the doing but 24p mjpeg and losing those 6 useless frames for an extra 30kb per frame would be the icing on the cake. I can't remember if this was discussed, Hunter and Kholi how is the aliasing in mjpeg mode?

gotta stop measurebating......would be a lot easier if I had something else to hold onto.....3 more weeks!
 
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