The Panasonic G1HD | GH-1 Video Mode : A Real Video Mode

[Nektonic]

This is why I'm sticking with my HVX200+Adapter combo. Not because the GH1 isn't better, but its just not THAT much better. We are definitely going to see revolutionary cameras coming up in the upcoming months- the Scarlet and Canon's Rumored Cmos based Prosumer camera, for example- so its just absurd to jump into somethingthat's full of compromises right now. Of course, absurd if you don't need a camera right now. I can see the GH1 being an excelent film school cam, for example.

Yes but when and if something better comes out you can always sell the GH1 and any lenses or accessories that you won't be using on the new camera, whatever it may be.

The problem with the Scarlet is (please note this is just my perspective):

1) Will it be readily available and in large enough numbers? If not, how long will the wait be for a Scarlet after you throw down some money?
2) First dibs go to Red One owners, although this factor will probably affect the quantity of the S35 and up model Scarlets, not the 2/3 ones as much.
3) They could change everything again and at the drop of a hat if they want. They've actually said to count on it. Until the first Scarlets ship and people start posting footage, I'm waiting to judge whether it will be a possible choice for me.
4) Even if there are no major changes to the hardware, there could be delays and bugs within the first year of the Scarlet's release. See Red One on this.
5) The cost of the S35 model with all the necessary accessories. $7,000 just for the "brain'.
6) The affordable Scarlets are only 2/3 sensor. By the time all the various incarnations of Scarlet will be out and readily available, 2/3 for the cost and workflow issues might not be as big of an attraction anymore.
7) The workflow and the amount of data that will need to be stored. This one is a little more subjective since some people will gladly accept the issues needed to be dealt with for the awesomeness of Red footage, while others might not want to or be able to put up with this type of workflow.

The problem with Canon's rumored CMOS prosumer HD interchangeable lens mount camera:

1) It is still just a rumor.
2) Even if it ever sees the light of day, it is not supposed to be announced until late this year or early 2010, with a rumored release date of sometime in 2010.
3) It will possibly cause Canon to intentionally cripple the video modes on any new DSLR's they make. Not like they couldn't already do that anyways. An eventual 60D anyone?
4) I doubt this, but Canon has been a little obsessed with HDV only so far. Will they limit it with only providing HDV when they could instead use the same codec the 5D mark II uses? Don't get me wrong, I think HDV is just dandy for the quality it provides at a low cost, but we do have to move on eventually.

 

[holyzoo]

I'm now clearly seeing 1080 fall apart on source clips downloaded from various places.

The train footage was the first major one I saw.

This is another example. Grab from this source:
http://lemon.soju.co.uk/g1/gh1-video-tests/

Mirrore'd the exact file on my server:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/00006.MTS.zip

Screen Grab:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/GH1_CodecBlowup2.jpg

If I'm not mistaken, the interlacing just gets mushed scattered throughout the frame and can't discern itself anymore. It's been properly deinterlaced. Same process used here:

http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/GH1_Deinterlace_Success.jpg

 

[Boz]

Since the GH1 is a "720P camera" it sure would have been nice if they would have given us 720-24P option! At this point I'd take that over a higher bitrate (given 720-60P looks pretty good at 17/Mbs I'm sure 720-24P would look great). I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to plant a bug in Panasonic's ear.

 

[Nektonic]

Since the GH1 is a "720P camera" it sure would have been nice if they would have given us 720-24P option! At this point I'd take that over a higher bitrate (given 720-60P looks pretty good at 17/Mbs I'm sure 720-24P would look great). I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to plant a bug in Panasonic's ear.

Agreed, this should've been an option from the get go.

This reminds me of the HV20 all over again, in that the 24p-embedded-in-60i causes problems. At least there are things like Neo Scene to remove pulldown.

 

[Park Edwards]

I'm now clearly seeing 1080 fall apart on source clips downloaded from various places.

The train footage was the first major one I saw.

This is another example. Grab from this source:
http://lemon.soju.co.uk/g1/gh1-video-tests/

Mirrore'd the exact file on my server:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/00006.MTS.zip

Screen Grab:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/GH1_CodecBlowup2.jpg

If I'm not mistaken, the interlacing just gets mushed scattered throughout the frame and can't discern itself anymore. It's been properly deinterlaced. Same process used here:

http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/GH1_Deinterlace_Success.jpg

your 2nd grab looked good to me.

 

[Nektonic]

your 2nd grab looked good to me.

Same here. I don't see any major problems, at least not on a normal glance at the image. Are you talking about if you zoom in and analyze the frame? The only thing that matters is if it looks good in motion in normal resolution, not super-zoomed in for scientific analysis.

Could this be like the whole HDV controversy all over again? I'm sure even 4K Red One grabs have problems when zoomed in 5000000% and scrutinized in Photoshop.

 

[holyzoo]

Ah.. nope, this isn't about zooming in past 100%. The first grab shows the codec just blowing up and falling apart, interlace mush included.

The 2nd clip was to show that the interlace artifacts aren't coming from my processing. I deinterlaced both clips the same way. So what I'm seeing is irrecoverable interlace artifacts that spread throughout the image when the codec falls apart.. Of course that's only one of the symptoms - the whole sharpness goes to mush as well as we've seen in the foliage shot from a train, etc..

In that regard, yes it's HDV all over again.

But Kholi is saying 720p is far stronger, so I'm wondering what codec failure looks like on 720p, if you can see it at all.

 

[Nektonic]

In that regard, yes it's HDV all over again.

Thing is many have used HDV for all kinds of productions and gotten away with it just fine. Even Crank 2, which was projected on the big screen looked fine. There were no noticeable codec breakups or any other problems that are associated with HDV.

 

[stephenvv]

I'm now clearly seeing 1080 fall apart on source clips downloaded from various places.

Yeah, I see the same things although at 100% speed, it's not nearly as noticeable as these large blow-ups of still frames. Even just stepping through frame by frame of fast jerky motion is not a way to decide how big an issue this really is.

In addition, shutter speed is major issue here - shot wild motion (from a train window, extreme telephoto handheld etc.) at high shutter speeds breaks most any codec-compression because every single pixel is different.

Howver, using a 1/50th, 1/40th, 1/30th etc. shutter will give those shots a more natural blur lessening load on codec.

Until we have some controlled tests with a filmic shutter and the kind of moves/shots in narrative work, the jury is still out.

Will this camera hold up like the cameras costing 10X or 100x or 1000x the price, no? But if holds up as well as HV20-30-40, it's already a winner. If it holds up as well as 1/4 and 1/3" HDV prosumer, it's home run. If a typical client can't tell the difference between it and Red footage at 1080p, it's a revolution.

I've got some broadcast spots I shot with a Red last year. I'm eager to try the same shots with a GH1 and see who can tell the difference.

 

[holyzoo]

I should say.. early HDV. It was pretty bad there for awhile.

 

[squig]

1600ISO looks cleaner than I expected http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnck4Elm1hM

 

[Kholi]

I should say.. early HDV. It was pretty bad there for awhile.

Dead on. A1 HDV looks better to my eyes. 720 = different story

 

[Nektonic]

I should say.. early HDV. It was pretty bad there for awhile.

JVC GR-HD1 or Sony Z1U/FX1 early HDV? If the former I'm a little worried, but if the latter then it wouldn't be as bad.

Dead on. A1 HDV looks better to my eyes. 720 = different story

How much better does A1 HDV look to you than the GH1 at 1080 24p? And as you've said before, you've been spoiled by Red One footage, so would you consider A1 HDV inferior for your uses anyways?

 

[Kholi]

Nope. The A1 is awesome. I wanted one for a long time and would still recommend it.

Can I be honest here? Someone told me I might be spoiled by RED footage but I never said that I am. I still think several cameras sub RED ONE can produce stellar images.

 

[Nektonic]

Nope. The A1 is awesome. I wanted one for a long time and would still recommend it.

So we're looking at a substantial difference between 1080 24p on the A1 versus the same on the GH1?

Can I be honest here? Someone told me I might be spoiled by RED footage but I never said that I am. I still think several cameras sub RED ONE can produce stellar images.

I must've mistakenly taken that person's statement as yours. Sorry.

 

[ChipG]

Thing is many have used HDV for all kinds of productions and gotten away with it just fine. Even Crank 2, which was projected on the big screen looked fine. There were no noticeable codec breakups or any other problems that are associated with HDV.

Most of Discovery Channels action adventure shows are HDV, Deadliest Catch, Storm Chasers, Recreation Nation. Deadliest Catch & Storm Chasers had the highest rating on Discovery Channel since Planet Earth premiered and they are all shot in HDV (Sony Z7's to be exact).

NO ONE GIVES A **** ABOUT HDV or AVCHD IF YOUR CONTENT IS GOOD!

Be a content whore not a measurebator!

Look at it this way, I'm going to buy one for $1500, use it a year and sell it for $750 on eBay then buy the GH2 or better small stealth cam when that happens. It'll cost me $750 for a year to shoot on this little cam, it will pay for itself in half a day maybe 30 min. My show is for a national broadcast cable net FTR and what I have seen so far I'm sold. Now the entire show will not be shot on this camera but there will be footage from it in the show.

 

[Kholi]

So we're looking at a substantial difference between 1080 24p on the A1 versus the same on the GH1?



I must've mistakenly taken that person's statement as yours. Sorry.

Just wait and see, man. Some will notice, some won't. I know it's frustrating to hear but it's not bad once you see the raw 720/60P you get from the camera.

 

[Nektonic]

NO ONE GIVES A shi* ABOUT HDV or AVCHD IF YOUR CONTENT IS GOOD!

Be a content whore not a measurebator!

I agree. I figure that I might as well prepare for the worst so that I am not disappointed because of any misconceptions that I might get about the 1080 24p mode, whether good or bad. If it isn't up to snuff in 1080 I'll use the 60p to 24p method in 720. I'll probably do so for fast action or frantic hand held scenes anyways, saving the 1080 24p for locked down stuff with minimal movement.

Just wait and see, man. Some will notice, some won't. I know it's frustrating to hear but it's not bad once you see the raw 720/60P you get from the camera.

Don't worry, I'm not ruling out the 1080 24p for my uses just yet. I just don't want to be overly exited or bummed out about that aspect of the camera for a month and a half before this thing finally hits the states and more footage and reviews start to pour in from those that have used it.

 

[stephenvv]

Even the aliasing on the Mark II looks like it's better controlled..

I have to disagree - just search aliasing on the Mark II on Youtube or Google - horrible stuff out there, way worse than anything we've seen on the GH1. I would say it a factor of 3 or 4 times worse than the GH1, if not more. The higher resolution sensor and slower processing sensor on the Mark II are probably factors.

 

[Kholi]

From those two samples, the comparison, the Mark II looked much better to my eyes. But you may be right.