The Panasonic G1HD | GH-1 Video Mode : A Real Video Mode
- Thread starter Kholi
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christophersj
Member
Hi, I would like to elaborate a little more on the 1080 vs. 720 and which is "better". I hope this can help Finster too.
No doubt, after 4k and 2k, 1080p is indeed the next superior format for filmmaking detail. But none of those is a BROADCAST format for television. In HDTV, in America, the two formats BOTH have advantages over the other and, in the end, deliver about the SAME amount of information to the viewer's brain.
1.) 1080i is an INTERLACE format. There is no 1080p broadcast. Dish Network is experimenting with one @ 24p but its not an ATSC standard. 1080i is 29.97 frames per second in a 60i signal. There is more lines of resolution, but only half of them are being shown every 60th of a second. There can be interlace artifacts and a freeze frame cannot contain all 1080 lines. It can have an "edgier" look.
2.) 720p is TRUE progressive. A frame is a PURE clean frame. It is packaged in a signal that is a REAL 60 full frames. This is SUPERIOR for sports. In fact, ABC and FOX broadcast exclusively in it. "Lost" may be edited in 1080 but it is NEVER broadcasts in 1080.
60 frames of 720 lines is superior to 60 frames of 540 lines for smooth sports. A sit-down interview probably "looks" sharper in 1080i.
Now, about 60p. Some people may like it for documentary, and some may use it for over-cranking in a film, but I can assure you it will not be liked for narrative films because it has that "live" news/soap opera feel and is not the commonly accepted tapestry for story-telling. Um, except for soaps.
So yeah, 1080p is better than 720p in filmmaking. But in American/Japanese broadcast video, 720p is a fair equal, and sometimes even a superior.
No doubt, after 4k and 2k, 1080p is indeed the next superior format for filmmaking detail. But none of those is a BROADCAST format for television. In HDTV, in America, the two formats BOTH have advantages over the other and, in the end, deliver about the SAME amount of information to the viewer's brain.
1.) 1080i is an INTERLACE format. There is no 1080p broadcast. Dish Network is experimenting with one @ 24p but its not an ATSC standard. 1080i is 29.97 frames per second in a 60i signal. There is more lines of resolution, but only half of them are being shown every 60th of a second. There can be interlace artifacts and a freeze frame cannot contain all 1080 lines. It can have an "edgier" look.
2.) 720p is TRUE progressive. A frame is a PURE clean frame. It is packaged in a signal that is a REAL 60 full frames. This is SUPERIOR for sports. In fact, ABC and FOX broadcast exclusively in it. "Lost" may be edited in 1080 but it is NEVER broadcasts in 1080.
60 frames of 720 lines is superior to 60 frames of 540 lines for smooth sports. A sit-down interview probably "looks" sharper in 1080i.
Now, about 60p. Some people may like it for documentary, and some may use it for over-cranking in a film, but I can assure you it will not be liked for narrative films because it has that "live" news/soap opera feel and is not the commonly accepted tapestry for story-telling. Um, except for soaps.
So yeah, 1080p is better than 720p in filmmaking. But in American/Japanese broadcast video, 720p is a fair equal, and sometimes even a superior.
Uwe Lansing
Veteran
The most important things I´ve got so far.
the good:
- full manual control of shutter speed, aperture, and iso
- AF with the kit lens works excellent
- noise in lowlight shots is barely or not at all existent (even with the kit lens)
- lowlight footage with 1600 iso looks still relatively good
- skew + jello in a very minor degree - comparable with RED cameras
.....
the bad:
- some aliasing + stair stepping (more in 1080/24p than in 720/60p)
- waves, stripes under fluorescent light - you can´t get rid of it (in 720/60p it exist not as strongly as in 1080/24p)
- crushing blacks
- in some shots banding is pretty obvious - mainly when the cam pans
.....
Certainly, I missed out a few points. A full list would be desirable...
the good:
- full manual control of shutter speed, aperture, and iso
- AF with the kit lens works excellent
- noise in lowlight shots is barely or not at all existent (even with the kit lens)
- lowlight footage with 1600 iso looks still relatively good
- skew + jello in a very minor degree - comparable with RED cameras
.....
the bad:
- some aliasing + stair stepping (more in 1080/24p than in 720/60p)
- waves, stripes under fluorescent light - you can´t get rid of it (in 720/60p it exist not as strongly as in 1080/24p)
- crushing blacks
- in some shots banding is pretty obvious - mainly when the cam pans
.....
Certainly, I missed out a few points. A full list would be desirable...
Apefos Adapter
Well-known member
aliasing
aliasing
I understang stair steping but I do not know what is aliasing, can someone explain aliasing for me please? thanks...
i found the answer:
Aliasing, comumente conhecido como serrilhamento, é o efeito em forma de serra que se cria ao desenhar uma reta em diagonal. Uma vez que a divisão minima num monitor é discreta (pixels) surge o aparecimento dos "dentes" da serra ao longo da recta desenhada.
O Anti-aliasing, é um método para minimizar esse efeito dando a ilusão que a recta é mais perfeita.
aliasing
I understang stair steping but I do not know what is aliasing, can someone explain aliasing for me please? thanks...
i found the answer:
Aliasing, comumente conhecido como serrilhamento, é o efeito em forma de serra que se cria ao desenhar uma reta em diagonal. Uma vez que a divisão minima num monitor é discreta (pixels) surge o aparecimento dos "dentes" da serra ao longo da recta desenhada.
O Anti-aliasing, é um método para minimizar esse efeito dando a ilusão que a recta é mais perfeita.
Last edited:
SonicStates
Well-known member
Ok so I have uploaded some straight from the camera footage which I hope you can all dissect. Daniel L needs a big thumbs-up "Thank you very much" for helping me out with server space. I guess he'll be letting you know where you can get your hands on it. Thanks again Daniel!
Excuse the ad hoc nature of the footage (especially the dirty windows I was shooting through on the train)...I was originally interested in doing a couple of jello tests with 720 and 1080 but Kholi has since addressed that...although I did notice that even in 720 it wasn't non-existent. I had some coooool NINJA footage but it was a pretty large file so I decided against it. There are 5 files with the kitty cat one being a little self indulgent but I just love the colour of her eyes in the camera.
Please also note that I am an intellectual pygmy when it comes to the technical side of this technology...that's why I LOOOVE DVXUser... In any case I'll answer what I can with any questions.
avchd is a real beast to work with...my xeon machine (although lacking the appropriate RAM) struggles so will be upgrading the hell out of the memory soon...or getting an i7. It's incredible when you look at the small size of the files.
Kholi, you're a legend so thanks for keeping everyone up to date with the info!! Hunter an Mr. Bloom too.
Cheers all.
Sam.
Excuse the ad hoc nature of the footage (especially the dirty windows I was shooting through on the train)...I was originally interested in doing a couple of jello tests with 720 and 1080 but Kholi has since addressed that...although I did notice that even in 720 it wasn't non-existent. I had some coooool NINJA footage but it was a pretty large file so I decided against it. There are 5 files with the kitty cat one being a little self indulgent but I just love the colour of her eyes in the camera.
Please also note that I am an intellectual pygmy when it comes to the technical side of this technology...that's why I LOOOVE DVXUser... In any case I'll answer what I can with any questions.
avchd is a real beast to work with...my xeon machine (although lacking the appropriate RAM) struggles so will be upgrading the hell out of the memory soon...or getting an i7. It's incredible when you look at the small size of the files.
Kholi, you're a legend so thanks for keeping everyone up to date with the info!! Hunter an Mr. Bloom too.
Cheers all.
Sam.
where ?
DavidNJ
Carbonite Member
The broadcast signal is 1080i, however it is common to encode 1080p24 PsF and 1080p30 PsF over it. Many, today I believe nearly all new, TVs can properly pulldown the progressive signal as progressive in that stream. I believe all editing software and Cineform's encoding software does also.
SonicStates
Well-known member
:violin:
not even by setting the shutter speed to match the frequency? that's how you get rid of it with every other camera i've used, including the d90 which suffers from it a lot.
/matt
Barry_Green
Moderator
Once again, the peril of trying to compare numbers without factoring in all the rest.
Logically, one would say that 1920x1080 would be sharper than 1280x720, and, if that was all there was to it, you would be correct.
But that's not all there is to it. The 1920x1080 HDTV we're saddled with uses INTERLACED recording, which sucks. Interlaced video is the devil. It is a hideous and evil compromise brought about as a form of analog compression.
It should be exterminated.
The European Broadcast Union, one of the most influential standards organizations in the world, evaluated both systems and said (paraphrased) "no way in hell will we continue with interlaced video. We'd love 1080p if we could have it, but we can't. So in the meantime, we endorse 720p over 1080i."
But, all people seem to want to talk about are the numbers, so yes, 1080 is a bigger number than 720, and so the majority of stations and countries are broadcasting 1080i.
For the record, 1080p *at the same frame rate* is in all ways better than 720p *at that same frame rate*. 1080/24p beats 720/24p, yes. 1080/30p beats 720/30p, yes. But in the broadcast world, 1080 does not support faster than 30fps in progressive mode, so they have to go to interlaced mode, and that's where 720p becomes noticeably better. For my eyes, 720/60p beats 1080/60i every time.
Some day we'll have true 1080/60p. When we do, that will trump 720/60p.
- Crushing blacks = No. It's a camera setting. That's not one of them.
- Banding = Noise Reduction settings.
Those last two aren't exactly on the list yet.
But I will give you one to add to the bad.
- VBR recording breaks up swiftly under motion @ 1080/24P, much less @ 720/60P.
Sonic -- Thanks for posting up some footage and helping out! I'm sure everyone's starving for it.
Been to the store today, having my hands on the G1 to figure roughly the system, then come a vendor:
/vendor (showing me the Mega OIS switch): "here you can disable auto-focus"
/me: ...
I keep looking functionnalities, trying to estimate the DOF on 25mm
/vendor: try our tele-lens, it's just there !
/me: ...
I was playing with the focus ring
/vendor: ah there, the zoom ring !
..later, to another potential customer:
/vendor: yes, you can store up to 3 hours HD video on this 4gb sd card !
Thank you vendor for all the useful informations !
/vendor (showing me the Mega OIS switch): "here you can disable auto-focus"
/me: ...
I keep looking functionnalities, trying to estimate the DOF on 25mm
/vendor: try our tele-lens, it's just there !
/me: ...
I was playing with the focus ring
/vendor: ah there, the zoom ring !
..later, to another potential customer:
/vendor: yes, you can store up to 3 hours HD video on this 4gb sd card !
Thank you vendor for all the useful informations !
All they do is talking. DoD chose 720p for its surveillance operations, now this means something.
You forgot about data rate. With limited data rate 720p often looks better having less compression artifacts.
Barry_Green
Moderator
So Kholi -- does your camera do 1080/25p? Is it switchable?
If so, I'd be very interested in seeing some footage shot both ways, to see if the aliasing is influenced in any way by the pulldown system.
Actually, another thing to explore would be that 25p should be able to reconstitute into better chroma sampling, because 24p (spreading the frames across fields) will be using the less-efficient interlaced chroma sampling, but 25p... might be cleaner.
Just wondering.
If so, I'd be very interested in seeing some footage shot both ways, to see if the aliasing is influenced in any way by the pulldown system.
Actually, another thing to explore would be that 25p should be able to reconstitute into better chroma sampling, because 24p (spreading the frames across fields) will be using the less-efficient interlaced chroma sampling, but 25p... might be cleaner.
Just wondering.
Here are the original & unmodified files contributed by SonicStates.
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/CountrysideJellotest1080.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/CountrysideJellotest720.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/KimbertheQueen1080.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/TrainJello720.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/TrainJelloTest1080.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/CountrysideJellotest1080.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/CountrysideJellotest720.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/KimbertheQueen1080.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/TrainJello720.MTS
http://gh1.dark-stone.com/sam/TrainJelloTest1080.MTS
OUCH, now I understand the pain of 24p in 60i (I'm in a PAL country, lucky me).
Looking frame by frame the footage, it means you end up with frames half the frame, half the next (2 progressive frame... interlaced !), while others are full frame, what an horrible mess !
Philip, can you upload some raw 25p footage somewhere (megaupload ?), I guess it would look a lot better frame by frame...
Looking frame by frame the footage, it means you end up with frames half the frame, half the next (2 progressive frame... interlaced !), while others are full frame, what an horrible mess !
Philip, can you upload some raw 25p footage somewhere (megaupload ?), I guess it would look a lot better frame by frame...