Park Edwards
Veteran
the scarlet isn't going to cost $1500.00 so, no, it won't be called the Scarlet.
The Panasonic G1HD | GH-1 Video Mode : A Real Video Mode
- Thread starter Kholi
- Start date
christophersj
Member
Hi guys. Long time lurker on this thread.
I just downloaded Philip Bloom's great little Austin piece. The MP4 QT. (Thanks Liza)
Keeping in mind this only a $1500 camera, so I'm not a hater, I have to say there is stair step aliasing ALL THROUGH THIS. The worst is on the white super 8 camera at 1:29 into the clip. That's not a wide shot either.
Its so prevalent on hard diagonal edges and circles, hell even lines in faces, that one can see this aliasing even in the Vimeo version, on the super 8 camera shot I mentioned.
This very much makes me think the GH1 might be a 720p video camera in reality, and its just scaling to create a fake 1080p. My gut says this is possible. Panasonic does this, as we know with the HVX.
I'm a documentary editor of 10 years and I have my own FCP HD edit suite here. I work with RED and Sony F-900 clips a lot so I'm a little prejudiced.
I do like things about this camera, though. I would love to have it for documenting home life and vacations. In fact, I may buy it just for that. But the aliasing is real in the 1080p Philip Bloom made, and its obvious to me.
I just downloaded Philip Bloom's great little Austin piece. The MP4 QT. (Thanks Liza)
Keeping in mind this only a $1500 camera, so I'm not a hater, I have to say there is stair step aliasing ALL THROUGH THIS. The worst is on the white super 8 camera at 1:29 into the clip. That's not a wide shot either.
Its so prevalent on hard diagonal edges and circles, hell even lines in faces, that one can see this aliasing even in the Vimeo version, on the super 8 camera shot I mentioned.
This very much makes me think the GH1 might be a 720p video camera in reality, and its just scaling to create a fake 1080p. My gut says this is possible. Panasonic does this, as we know with the HVX.
I'm a documentary editor of 10 years and I have my own FCP HD edit suite here. I work with RED and Sony F-900 clips a lot so I'm a little prejudiced.
I do like things about this camera, though. I would love to have it for documenting home life and vacations. In fact, I may buy it just for that. But the aliasing is real in the 1080p Philip Bloom made, and its obvious to me.
squig
Veteran
I tried the anti-alias filter on it in fcp. It hides it a bit but also softens the image. But it was probably a bit too sharp for my liking anyway. that with a bit of added noise hides the compression artifacts and makes it look more filmic.
When they do make a pro 4/3 camera it will probably be too big for my liking.
If you can't make good films with this then you can't make good films.
When they do make a pro 4/3 camera it will probably be too big for my liking.
If you can't make good films with this then you can't make good films.
squig
Veteran
Nektonic
Veteran
Isn't that called Scarlet?
Well technically yes, but, the Scarlet was announced quite a while ago. I'm thinking of something else in the near future from Panasonic, Sony, Canon, or even Nikon. New gear comes out so much faster than it did two or three years ago it can sometimes be a bit dizzying for me. In the long run, good for us all though. I'd rather have too many choices than hardly any at all. Remember the good old days when it was either a DVX or an XL-2? That was it unless you wanted a PD-150 which didn't have 24p.
If that is the case, it is sorta disappointing but a $1,500 720p hybrid still/motion camera with interchangeable lenses and 60p for slo-mo is still a pretty good deal.
In other news....... the GH1 has now invaded the screenwriting section of the forum.
rogar-Shock(DBG):http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=169844
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squig
Veteran
It's also all over the vehicles, arches, etc. I guess maybe it's just not as apparent as I'm seeing it. But I can't help but notice it. =(
It's the worst I've found, personally. The codec breaking under fast motion is less an issue because you can just use 720/60 for that. MJPEG is even more resilient than that if you're okay with 30P.
Exactly. Makes NO sense at all until you think about the idea that the camera is in fact scaling an image down to fit the 1080 or 720. And both the 1080 and 720 have it.
You may start seeing it as you record with the camera and look at the footage constantly. Then again, I think I may be much more worried about wides than everyone else so, different strokes.
It's in all of the footage. I thought it might not be in the MJPEG but it's there.
LoL. No iTunes gift card needed. I may be a bit worried about the wide stuff because I love wides to death.
Tokina 11-16mm @ 11
Tokina 11-16 @ about 13mm
I can't help it. I love it in narrative work as well. =(
But if it's pleasing to you guys then that's all that matters really. The 720p does look a bit better, guess because it's smaller.
And the tires, the blind shade, the building windows.
Sharpening has been dialed down to 0, so has noise Reduction. I'm on a semi-custom curve based on the setting that seemed to exhibit the most range in daylit scenarios and night.
There's also extra glass in front of the lens, a Hoya HMC Polarizer. You'll have to judge it in motion. No worries, my first actual footage will show plenty of ALiasing because I am not about to avoid wides just to skimp over it.
I rarely ever disagree with you, and I'm not disagreeing with you here. It's a start, so i'm not really complaining, just a bit disheartened.
That's really it. I'm definitely used to the larger stuff and I'm still impressed by the GH-1. I'm just being caught by surprise, that's all. When I actually USE the camera I am pretty sure Ill be over it. That's always the one thing that makes the real difference.
Again, I can't even begin to disagree with you.
I have NO idea. it baffles the hell out of me. I hope that a change of glass can even begin to recitfy this. Because hope is okay to have!
To be fair, the 1080 resolves more detail than the 720 for SURE. I did several tests with greenery myself and it absolutely does resolve more detail in 1080. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but I'd like to point that out.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that it definitely murders the D90 on Detail Acquisition. Trees don't look like mush.
If Aliasing is an issue and de-aliasing is the solution, then maybe using a higher sharpening setting in camera then dealiasing will balance it out. Good thought, Squig.
christophersj
Member
Anti-aliasing filter = blur
Nektonic
Veteran
I hear ya. It is so close, but then the darn aliasing. It is always something. The cam that gets all their ducks in order can't be too much farther off. I just hope I don't have to sell some internal organs on the Black Market to afford it (I'm looking at you Canon). GH1 is still tempting me though, even if I can't use it for every single shot. There is still plenty of time to wait and see what you, Hunter, and Mr. Bloom capture for us to see prior to this thing hitting the States.
If anything, until then we could start contacting Panasonic and see about them fixing this, or will it go unanswered like the Nikon and Canon firmware requests?
Plus, unless we are distributing on Blu-ray or doing theatrical presentation, I'm gonna take a stab at guessing the aliasing will be reduced well enough for DVD and web distribution. That is how 95% of the people who will be viewing anything I produce over the next year or so will see it.
Although, I'm definitely ready to move on from HDV hopefully by next year. I mean with P2 going down considerably in price, why not? And Canon's new higher-end mpeg4 codec seems to fit on CF and SDHC cards. I can't argue with that.
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christophersj
Member
Kholi,
Thanks for the info. I now think my theory is incorrect. If you see some aliasing still occurring in 720p, and you can verify more detail in 1080 shot, then I withdraw my idea.
But I still think it is from SOME kind of scaling or moving of pixels. Maybe what Liza said. Maybe its what you said and it comes from DOWN-scaling from the native chip. I have seen bad downscaling before for sure.
Thanks for the info. I now think my theory is incorrect. If you see some aliasing still occurring in 720p, and you can verify more detail in 1080 shot, then I withdraw my idea.
But I still think it is from SOME kind of scaling or moving of pixels. Maybe what Liza said. Maybe its what you said and it comes from DOWN-scaling from the native chip. I have seen bad downscaling before for sure.
Nektonic
Veteran
Wasn't this one of the initial worries that people were pondering about after the GH1 was announced?
It makes sense that it could be some sort of scaling issue since both the 1080 and 720 is coming off a higher res sensor/signal, but the weird thing is Kholi is getting it mostly on wides and not so much on middle range or telephoto zoom settings.
Okay, here's a bit of wild speculation.
Remember how Panasonic isn't working with Leica on their current lenses, because Leica didn't agree with their reliance on post-processing to correct lens abberations? And remember how people had to jump through all sorts of hoops to view the actual photos the G1 recorded in RAW, because by default, there's a lot of processing applied behind-the-scenes to correct things like pincushion effects?
Well, you can't really sneak in that same sort of correction with video, there would have to be recompression and it would take time and further degrade the image. But perhaps they can do it in-camera - not nearly same quality as something that has the full processing power of your PC, but "good enough" by Panasonic's standards.
If it was correcting barrel distortion in-camera, it would make sense that artifacts from this process show up the most in wide angle shots.
So maybe it *is* the lens. The only way to be sure is to test some manual focus lenses.
Remember how Panasonic isn't working with Leica on their current lenses, because Leica didn't agree with their reliance on post-processing to correct lens abberations? And remember how people had to jump through all sorts of hoops to view the actual photos the G1 recorded in RAW, because by default, there's a lot of processing applied behind-the-scenes to correct things like pincushion effects?
Well, you can't really sneak in that same sort of correction with video, there would have to be recompression and it would take time and further degrade the image. But perhaps they can do it in-camera - not nearly same quality as something that has the full processing power of your PC, but "good enough" by Panasonic's standards.
If it was correcting barrel distortion in-camera, it would make sense that artifacts from this process show up the most in wide angle shots.
So maybe it *is* the lens. The only way to be sure is to test some manual focus lenses.
Park Edwards
Veteran
weak
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christophersj
Member
Bloom's video shows aliasing at medium focal lengths. It reminds me of the kind of aliasing in interlace.
But I would still use this camera. Its small size is perfect for so many things in life (think repelling down a cliff). And a no brainer as a family camera.
But I would still use this camera. Its small size is perfect for so many things in life (think repelling down a cliff). And a no brainer as a family camera.
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