The Next Panasonic Camera -- suggestions to the product manager

B

Barry_Green

Moderator
Hey folks, we have an interesting opportunity here in regards to Panasonic. We used to have Jan Crittenden Livingston, who was the product manager for the USA pro division, who was a frequent visitor and contributor to our site, and it is partly through Jan's efforts that we (the end users) had a voice in helping shape what would become some of Panasonic's biggest hits (such as the DVX100, HPX170, HMC150, and HVX200, among others).

Jan's retired, but things have changed a little at Panasonic as well. Or, should I say, they've changed a LOT. The Panasonic consumer factory has just produced the HC-X1000, a pro-style, pro-flavor camera that is every bit as much of a Panasonic pro broadcast camera as any of their other handhelds. Not to mention the success of the GH1, GH2, GH3, and GH4, all of which came from this same division (and even brought us the YAGH, which was their first attempt at crossing over to the pro market).

And, the product manager for Panasonic's consumer division is very interested in hearing from us about what we want to see them develop.

Realistic suggestions have the highest likelihood of actually being implemented; asking them to reinvent the camera world is likely not going to be as successfully received, of course. And please, no bickering -- this thread is meant to collect suggestions that will be taken to the Panasonic factory, so let's make realistic suggestions and be on our best behavior please.

So, I'll start us off with some suggestions of what I think would be eminently do-able and which I would be happy to buy:

1. Take the HC-X1000's body, chop off the lens, pull out the sensor, shove in the GH4's sensor, and put an M4/3 mount on it. Everything else can stay the same. Voila, instant 4K "AF200" with GH4 image quality and 4K/60p, that could use any kind of lens through an adapter or SpeedBooster. I'd buy that.
2. I'd also love to see some slow-mo options. If 4K/60p is possible, then perhaps 1080/240p could also be possible? Or 720/480p? Or standard-def 960 fps?
3. We'd all like to see an option for recording raw, or at least a log-style recording gamma.


What else would you folks like to see? They're listening; let's give them some good suggestions for products that lots of people would want.
 
i would like an eng cam with larger chips (1/2", 1") that uses a cheaper form of media than p2, with the "panasonic look" that everyone likes, i.e the look from the hvx/hpx series cams.
 
10 bit internal recording to C-fast.

I understand the reason to stay with legacy m43 glass but a S35 sensor, in light of what the competition is rolling out, should be considered.

120 FPS

Short flange distance to the sensor so that any lens mount can be used.

And definitely some kind of log setting that allows the full range of the sensor to be recorded...
-with the ability to monitor the LUT through the EVF.
 
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What josh bass and Barry green said above would be great.

and if either the eng style camera or af200 camera had body ergonomics like the sony nex ea50u that would be even better!

In-camera recording options of some flavor of 4:2:2 plus the option of avchd and long-g to sdhc/sdxc cards for long form work.

Using the old dvx style or hmc style batteries would be great.
 
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Anything with the GH4 (or improved) sensor with raw. It could literally be a brick with a sensor and a m4/3 lens mount on it and I'd be happy. I don't care about ergonomics, since it's going to be rigged up anyways. :)

The GH4 sensor is one of the best right now in terms of dynamic range to pixel size. For instance, the Arri Alexa and Amira have more DR, but their pixel size is massive - 8.25um. The Blackmagic Pocket and Cinema Camera are fairly/somewhat close to the Alexa in DR, but are still relatively large at 6.5um. None of these cameras do 4K, though.

If you need 4K, the 4K Blackmagic Ursa / Production (which is one of, if not the cheapest 4K raw out there) actually has less DR and low light than the GH4, but has much bigger pixels - 5.5um. The GH4 sensor is in a lot of ways much better than the Ursa / Production, but there are no raw capabilities, and I can't get away from the convenience of shooting raw.

With the GH4 I also have way more options than the 4K Super 35mm cameras in terms of lenses, including using Super 16mm lenses or a Speed Booster for low light, both of which are massive pluses to me.

Basically, I neeed raw, more so than anything else.
 
Would like to see the GH4 replacement with on-board 4:2:2 color space recording, a shutter speed lock to prevent accidental change, and 120 fps slow motion recording with much better quality than the current 96 fps.
 
Assuming that we're past having to worry about moire; I'd be pretty excited about:

- 12 stops dynamic range
- Internal 4K, 4:2:2, 100Mb/s+ to SDXC cards
- Full-readout S35 sensor (M43 mount like JVC, if possible)
- 4-inch onboard swivel LCD (720P would be great)
- Hi-res viewfinder
- 2 x XLR inputs with phantom power
- Long-lasting batteries
- <$5,000

And there is something very video-ish in the motion cadence of the GH4 footage I have seen (i.e. GH4's 24P looks oddly like 30P to me). It's hard to put a finger on what it is exactly, but it wasn't an issue with the GH2. I'd love to see a return to form.
 
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Thank you for asking!

Let's use the GH4 as a (great) starting point. I own two. Well, I just sold one, actually.

Anyway...

1. Decrease the HDMI-out latency.

2. Decrease the rolling shutter.

3. High-bitrate (200mbps+) 10bit internal 4K/60p is the spec everyone will pay more for in the future, so why not just standardize on that? Mass-produce those ASICs!

4. Build in a locking HDMI port

5.a) Either offer raw recording options (work with Atomos, Convergent Design, Sound Devices, etc to pipe that out of the HDMI feed - there is plenty of bandwidth for uncompressed raw, even - if you can do a 4K 4:2:2 10bit frame, you can do a 4K 16bit raw frame, since you're only sending one color channel per pixel)
OR
5.b) work on the color science so that the colors out of the box look like a raw still converted to JPEG in DXO or Lightroom using good slider settings (nothing too fancy like computationally-expensive NR etc - just good color). The color engine in the GH4 adds some unnecessary banding and weirdness.
OR
5.c) offer a "straight from the sensor" mode similar to GoPro's ProTune or whatever that uses the sensor's native white balance. Maybe with Log encoding. Let the users load 3D LUTs into the camera that then take that feed and transform it into something beautiful.

6. If the camera can go above 60p - 72p, whatever - offer that too! Don't lock it to 60p because that's "the standard". Offer an HDR mode too where you can shoot alternating frames at different shutter speeds - why not!

7. Offer a video storage mode that stores the full resolution of the sensor. The GH4's Photo Mode is a great start: e.g. not limited to 4096x2160. Now please take full advantage of the GH4's sensor: give us a mode that actually records 4608x3456. Work with Atomos, Convergent Design, Sound Devices, etc to figure out how to pipe that out too.

8. Don't make bulky, expensive stuff like that YAGH adapter.

9. Allow us to punch in to zoom in while recording.

10. Allow us to place the Histogram lower (at the moment, it obscures part of our viewing screen). Offer a RGB Histogram while you're at it.

11. Look at the resolution of cellphone screens. Why can't we have THAT on the back of our camera?

12. Use better optics for the viewfinder

13. Don't use horrible default sharpening and NR settings that make the camera look very un-filmic when you take it out of the box and turn it on.

14. Have an open protocol for controlling and synchronizing the camera. Like you can with machine vision cameras. Then people can buy lots of your cameras and make time-lapse rigs, bullet time rigs, 360 degree Oculus rigs, stereo rigs, light field rigs, motion capture rigs, etc...

15. XLRs for audio would save a lot of hassle

16. Internal NDs would rock

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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Using the GH4 as a base...

1. Stay with the current body shape - again. It works, it still looks modern and everything is in the right place, why fiddle (plus you will keep lots of people happy with 3rd party cages etc etc)
2. Sensor - Why not go down in resolution and get the native width to be that of 4k, so we don't have any additional crop, while you at it, let us record the whole sensor at 30/60fps
- Or if the marketing department don't like the sound of that (as more pixels is better right....) record the native full sensor, be it 4:3 and let us down-sample to 4k 16:9...
3. Record 10bit 4:2:2 (400mbps??) internally - those UHS-II 95Mb/s cards must be fast enough for it - if not go C-Fast
- RAW output option would be amazing too
4. Auto ISO in Manual Mode while in creative video mode (I want to lock Shutter and Aperture, yet get some help from the camera to keep exposure) (THIS I WOULD LIKE IN MY GH4 NOW!)
- If this is possible - why not have gradual ISO increase / decrease, not just stops - but incremental changes in gain in 0.1, not 1.0
5. Go back to MINI HDMI, Micro is just too small for every day connection/disconnection. (Get a feeling, we will be told to use the YAGH...)
6. Custom Buttons - More Functions Available - I would like single press manual white balance please, with the advent of RAW for photos, a dedicated button is of little use, but for video, initially setting the white manual, via a single button press would be handy
7. 120FPS 1080p

8. Remote App - Allow Full Screen Video Feed.

I think many of these things could be incorporated into the current GH4 Firmware today...with Sony stealing the Shogun limelight with the A7S and Samsung showing they are listening and updating the NX1 in days/weeks. Panasonic now need to up their game a little.
 
weather sealed
shoulder mount or well thought out modular design that enables balanced shoulder configuration without the frankencamera effect
compact
4/3 chip
interchangeable lens
4k high frame rates with looping cache & external trigger option - push the limit on the frame rate with 4k
solid color/bit depth
 
Camcorder body (same as AC160 layout minus lens + ND's/XLR's/SDI/HDMI etc)
Same exposure displays as AC160 - waveform etc
Larger foldout/swivel LCD
M43 mount
Rotary scene file wheel (like the HMC150/AC160)
Manual ISO wheel/control
Manual FPS wheel/control
Manual Shutter wheel/control
Int/ext TRUE 10 bit 422 high MB/s output to dual card slots & via SDI/HDMI
1080p 120FPS SloMo
Separate Punch in Focus Assist/peaking options
 
Barry, this is good news but I am confused about the consumer/broadcast division divide. It seems the consumer division is wanting to punch above its weight so to speak. If you look at these suggestions, are they really "consumer" anymore? 10 bit 4:2:2 or RAW with 120fps and interchangeable lenses. Seems pretty pro to me.

I think what I am saying is the fact that many of these cameras folk like these days (GH4 etc...) come from consumer roots and this, in the end is what holds them back from being the bomb professionally. I know I want pro level quality. Can the consumer division give this and still be inline with company objectives? For example, you can slap an XLR plug on a consumer camera with consumer level preamps and say "there you go, pro audio" But we all know we would be unhappy using this audio for paid work.

As for suggestions, I am with you Barry. Three simple things. Although I would sneak in Micro P2 and AVC-Long GOP 25/50. Thanks!
 
Bassman2003 said:
Barry, this is good news but I am confused about the consumer/broadcast division divide. It seems the consumer division is wanting to punch above its weight so to speak... I think what I am saying is the fact that many of these cameras folk like these days (GH4 etc...) come from consumer roots and this, in the end is what holds them back from being the bomb professionally...
Click to expand...
(if I am allowed to excerpt this from the above post)

It does indeed look like what Barry has in mind and what several GH4 users suggested are two different cameras. On the other hand, GH-4+YAGH combination in a single "camcorder" body is an even split between them. In this regard, one has to expect some improvement in the next iteration of GH4 while allowing this "AF-200" type camera to offer more than incremental advancement over GH4.

Some of these differences will be feature based, others will be due to having higher quality components. IF - a major IF, since I am not certain where the consumer division ends and the pro begins - the dividing line between pro and consumer is about $3,500, then the consumer probably will have to settle for an MFT sensor, while allowing the pros to develop an s35 camera.

From an engineering point of view, I wonder if Panasonic can implement the BSI technology and a simultaneous increase in pixel count a la Samsung NX1 in order to better their current low light performance while upping the resolution to a 5.5/6K range as an intermediary step to 8K (the Panasonic management expressed these views in a recent interview given to DC Watch, IIRC).

PS. As to the recording media, these new 95 MB/s cards should be more than sufficient for 4K in HEVC, which hopefully will be the implemented codec ... with several available bit rates a la ProRes.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Barry, this is good news but I am confused about the consumer/broadcast division divide. It seems the consumer division is wanting to punch above its weight so to speak. If you look at these suggestions, are they really "consumer" anymore? 10 bit 4:2:2 or RAW with 120fps and interchangeable lenses. Seems pretty pro to me.
Click to expand...

Consumer still cameras (even some compact ones) have raw. Why not consumer camcorders?

It's a chicken-and-egg situation: if consumer camcorders add raw, the software will support it.

Same as with consumer still cameras and raw in the beginning.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bassman2003 said:
Barry, this is good news but I am confused about the consumer/broadcast division divide. It seems the consumer division is wanting to punch above its weight so to speak. If you look at these suggestions, are they really "consumer" anymore?
Click to expand...
For reference, look at the HC-X1000. It is every bit as "pro" as the DVX100 was; in many ways it's a 4K DVX100 or HMC150.

10 bit 4:2:2 or RAW with 120fps and interchangeable lenses. Seems pretty pro to me.
Click to expand...
Well... if you look at consumer still cameras, 120 fps and interchangeable lenses are the norm. So to me, it seems like zero of a stretch to consider it on a camcorder from the consumer division.
Raw? Again, raw already exists in consumer still cameras, so -- slapping some JPEG2000 compression on it and recording it out at 200 mbps (like the original RedCode RAW) doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Not necessary, IMO, but within the realms of do-ability.
10-bit 4:2:2 -- that is strictly the realm of the pro camcorder right now, yes. But is it that hard for them to do? If the GH4 is already putting out 10-bit 4:2:2 out its HDMI port, then ... the internal processing already exists, so now we're talking about a codec to record it. This one may be beyond what we can reasonably expect, yes, but then again, maybe not. Can't hurt to ask, but I wouldn't be upset if it didn't have it, seeing as practically nothing else does either.

I know I want pro level quality. Can the consumer division give this and still be inline with company objectives? For example, you can slap an XLR plug on a consumer camera with consumer level preamps and say "there you go, pro audio" But we all know we would be unhappy using this audio for paid work.
Click to expand...
Fully understood. All I can say is -- look at the HC-X1000. Apart from the sensitivity, which is an obvious and known quantity for an (effectively) 1/3" 4K chip, it is again every bit as pro a camcorder as the DVX was in its day. Now, the DVX was never going to be a VariCam 3700, and I don't expect any new camera from the consumer division will be either. But it was pro enough to become a massive worldwide hit that transformed the way TV was made, so ... while it wasn't top tier, it was (again) "pro enough" for what it was. I do expect that the consumer division can deliver DVX/HVX/HPX170 caliber pro quality, because they've already done so.

I'm not expecting a $5,000 camcorder from these folks. I'm hoping for more along the lines of the existing price point for the HC-X1000 ($3599) or hopefully even lower; chopping off the lens and just sticking in an existing sensor might (MIGHT) get us in the neighborhood of $2995. And I'd have to think that would be an extremely appealing combination for a lot of folks. But that's total speculation, I have no idea what scale they could make these things on, it may need to be more expensive for it to make business sense to them, we don't know. But I would be surprised if they were aiming much above the $3599 price point that they've already established.
 
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