The New Cinema Camera

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John Brawley said:
I think you have to work that out for yourself. You need time hands on with it to know what works or doesn’t.

The whole specs and looking at other people’s work...

You never know till you try it in your own circumstances. Rent some cameras and try them out !

JB
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Sure but just as far as having 2 cameras than can match well together and have strengths to cover the other's weaknesses (small size vs ease of handheld/ENG shooting, low-light vs higher-DR)

Yes, I would need hands-on time to decide if I like them. But the theory is sound!
 
John Brawley said:
I've used both the P6K and UMP in drama situations where image is the most important concern. And I'd go for the G2 every time.


JB
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That's good to hear considering I've recently invested in an Ursa recently. That said I have the old version without 4K 120P and without BRAW. Although I think CDNG might hold more dynamic range than BRAW from what I've read.

It is an amazing camera to use handheld. A 50mm looks awesome where as on a Pocket it would be a shaky mess in comparison, at least without a lot of rigging.

The Pocket 6k is amazing if you need something more flexible though. Once the sun gets low even with fast lenses you start to need lighting. Not that you shouldn't be using lighting in the first place haha

ahalpert said:
Sure but just as far as having 2 cameras than can match well together and have strengths to cover the other's weaknesses (small size vs ease of handheld/ENG shooting, low-light vs higher-DR)

Yes, I would need hands-on time to decide if I like them. But the theory is sound!
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If you don't care about brand recognition its definitely a great combo. Both the Pocket 4k and 6k are fantastic, though the P6K is kind of its its own league. 4K does beat it in rolling shutter though.
 
sgttom said:
If you don't care about brand recognition its definitely a great combo. Both the Pocket 4k and 6k are fantastic, though the P6K is kind of its its own league. 4K does beat it in rolling shutter though.
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Why do you say the P6K is in its own league? The color and imagery I've seen from it look very similar to the P4K.

From what I've read, it has a touch more DR than the P4K at low gain (but a touch less at high gain). And I've read it has better color reproduction at the extreme ends of highlights and shadows. And obviously more resolution. But in another league, you think?
 
Also important for this decision: batteries on the p4k run out very fast... and it's a lot worse on the p6k

But yes, if I was getting a new camera today, it would probably be the p6k with the internal speedbooster. The improved DR is a big thing for me, and using BRAW at 6k gets you the same sharpness and bitrate of cDNG on 4k so, pretty comparable on that side (that is: I consider 6k to be a downside, but using BRAW instead of cDNG solves the bitrate problem, whereas having 6k instead of 4k solves the slight softness problem of BRAW).
 
Samuel H said:
Also important for this decision: batteries on the p4k run out very fast... and it's a lot worse on the p6k

But yes, if I was getting a new camera today, it would probably be the p6k with the internal speedbooster. The improved DR is a big thing for me, and using BRAW at 6k gets you the same sharpness and bitrate of cDNG on 4k so, pretty comparable on that side (that is: I consider 6k to be a downside, but using BRAW instead of cDNG solves the bitrate problem, whereas having 6k instead of 4k solves the slight softness problem of BRAW).
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By internal speedbooster do you mean the lucadapter speedbooster? I see your reasons for preferring P6K but it doesn't sound like it's in a separate league necessarily
 
ahalpert said:
Why do you say the P6K is in its own league? The color and imagery I've seen from it look very similar to the P4K.

From what I've read, it has a touch more DR than the P4K at low gain (but a touch less at high gain). And I've read it has better color reproduction at the extreme ends of highlights and shadows. And obviously more resolution. But in another league, you think?
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It doesn't have the red clipping issue that the Pocket 4k has. Its not a big issue when shooting RAW, but you can't really fix that if you run into it with prores. Not a huge deal. The overall color reproduction and skin tones seems nicer on the Pocket 6k. One of the reasons people love Arri is how it maintains its color while over or under exposed. The P6K does this really well, which is impressive at a 2k price point. The noise is also finer and a little more pleasing than the 4k.

Maybe "in a league of its own" is an exaggeration. It certainly is a superior image though. That said I'd probably buy the pocket 4k over the 6k. I'd rather have full sensor 4k and the ability to use a speedbooster.
 
Last year I was contemplating Saving the money and going BM or going up the food chain. think the BM's are fantstic bang for buck, but I am hardly enamored with digital video cameras today. So, I just bought the camera I could live with. But in most people's minds there is only going to be a 2% difference between a BM and something costing 5 digits.

Here are two comparison screen grabs of the Pocket 4K along side the Red Gemini. If you can't tell which is which, then you win (and get to save a lot of money!)
1.
48905887751_d33c0d76df_c.jpg

2.
48837932587_318cb0b334_c.jpg


I don't recall where I found the videos in image 1, but image two is from the ever so talented James Miller. (videos linked in next post)
 
I like the RED more from those videos. Big reason is it has more contrast which is really just a grading choice.
 
sgttom said:
I like the RED more from those videos. Big reason is it has more contrast which is really just a grading choice.
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I like the way the Gemini keeps the highlights. The P4K stuggles a little on the blonde hair and the white clothing. Gets a bit clippy. Also, the colours on the P4K are more muted(beyond the lower contrast). Which was my impression of the camera when shooting it a long side the red. Still, when i first picked up the P4K, it looked so good, i was pretty excited, even if a little worried i had wasted money on a Red. But after really spending a day casually shooting with them, it was pretty clear in the end.
 
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Anyone have thoughts on the recent cameras out in the wild:

- R5
- A73
- Komodo
- BM12K
- C300 mkIII

Any others being used that look like games changers? How would you rank them on the current list?
 
Having owned only one of those, I can only talk about one in depth - but as far as what my mind and eyes tell me after about 10 years of experience of using cameras and following 99% made since around 2014...(and this is only about IQ with a few random personal opinions):

R5 = IQ a step above everything else from Canon in this category (besides maybe the 1DX Mark III) but the camera was ruined because of overheating.
a7SIII = probably the best AF in the world. Still video-like images with not much blockbuster pop.
Komodo = reminds me more of a Blackmagic than a RED. If the camera continues to be improved with of course AF being #1, it will be an interesting system.
12K = I can't say I see a difference, at least not on my screen. Resolution, motion, colors...IDK. Too much money, wrong mount, my least favorite BM camera.
C300 Mark III = same Canon quality, AF in online tests loses itself, overpriced.

Honorable mentions to watch out for: C70, FX6, a full-frame BM camera.

Ranking:
#1 - R5 if it didn't overheat, or a7SIII if it looked better.
#2 - One of the above.
#3 - Komodo
#4 - C300 Mark III
#5 - BM (no AF, no IBIS, no ProRes)
 
James0b57 said:
Anyone have thoughts on the recent cameras out in the wild:

- R5
- A73
- Komodo
- BM12K
- C300 mkIII

Any others being used that look like games changers? How would you rank them on the current list?
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A73 - low end workhorse
C300 iii - mid range workhorse
Komodo - whatever the hell you want
BM12k - narrative work
R5 - came close to being amazing but ultimately sucks if it's your only camera
 
NorBro said:
Having owned only one of those, I can only talk about one in depth - but as far as what my mind and eyes tell me after about 10 years of experience of using cameras and following 99% made since around 2014...(and this is only about IQ with a few random personal opinions):

R5 = IQ a step above everything else from Canon in this category (besides maybe the 1DX Mark III) but the camera was ruined because of overheating.
a7SIII = probably the best AF in the world. Still video-like images with not much blockbuster pop.
Komodo = reminds me more of a Blackmagic than a RED. If the camera continues to be improved with of course AF being #1, it will be an interesting system.
12K = I can't say I see a difference, at least not on my screen. Resolution, motion, colors...IDK. Too much money, wrong mount, my least favorite BM camera.
C300 Mark III = same Canon quality, AF in online tests loses itself, overpriced.

Honorable mentions to watch out for: C70, FX6, a full-frame BM camera.

Ranking:
#1 - R5 if it didn't overheat, or a7SIII if it looked better.
#2 - One of the above.
#3 - Komodo
#4 - C300 Mark III
#5 - BM (no AF, no IBIS, no ProRes)
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Pretty solid. The over heating is frustrating, Cleremond using two R5’s is a boss move.

We shot on film today, and i can tell you, overheating is welcome over burning through a 400ft mag on a budget. Never seen a director call cut so fast in my life. Loved it! Overheating might help with the discipline. Not sYing i prefer it, but there are some situations i wouldn’t be bothered by it, just makes it difficult to be a reliable work horse for getting through the day with one camera.

Your R5 footage was stunning!
 
It was alright...nothing special, haha.

It's easy to film static shots of nature in golden hours.
 
NorBro said:
Having owned only one of those, I can only talk about one in depth - but as far as what my mind and eyes tell me after about 10 years of experience of using cameras and following 99% made since around 2014...(and this is only about IQ with a few random personal opinions):

R5 = IQ a step above everything else from Canon in this category (besides maybe the 1DX Mark III) but the camera was ruined because of overheating.
a7SIII = probably the best AF in the world. Still video-like images with not much blockbuster pop.
Komodo = reminds me more of a Blackmagic than a RED. If the camera continues to be improved with of course AF being #1, it will be an interesting system.
12K = I can't say I see a difference, at least not on my screen. Resolution, motion, colors...IDK. Too much money, wrong mount, my least favorite BM camera.
C300 Mark III = same Canon quality, AF in online tests loses itself, overpriced.

Honorable mentions to watch out for: C70, FX6, a full-frame BM camera.

Ranking:
#1 - R5 if it didn't overheat, or a7SIII if it looked better.
#2 - One of the above.
#3 - Komodo
#4 - C300 Mark III
#5 - BM (no AF, no IBIS, no ProRes)
Click to expand...

Great summarization NorBro. This basically matches how I feel about these cameras. I'm looking forward to the Sony FX6 reveal to see how it matches up against this list.
 
I also largely agree with NorBro's list.

I feel like one caveat is the 12-bit RAW from the A7SIII. It's hard for me to believe that a good colorist couldn't bend that to their will and match any look. I haven't seen it done and I wasn't that impressed with the Philip bloom film, but it's hard for me to believe it couldn't be done. which, of course, would have no effect on detail level or motion cadence. But I think the motion cadence at 24fps is fine (better than 60p).

I think the upcoming canon R1 will be the full package for a mirrorless camera, although it'll probably cost $6500. And it will probably be capable of continuous 24fps in stills mode although I doubt they will encode that in video form

I think the FX9 looks pretty nice although the RS is visibly slow I think. The FX6 will probably look nice too although the devil's in the details
 
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