The HVX at GV Expo

[icicle22]

It makes sense for those who are going to shoot only in SD, want to go the tapeless route, and don't want to spend a lot of cash.

Kevin

well if predictions on price are accurate then 1 4g P2 should end up about the same as 2 2g P2 cards. To me it doesn't make sense to spend the same amount of cash on 2 inferior cards that are limited when you could get 1 4g and have future HD potential. This is based on the prices of 4g P2 dropping when the 8G P2 hit the market.

 

[Barra]

In relation to all these bundles as previously posted:

1) HVX + 2 8G P2 Cards= $9,999
2) HVX + 5 4G P2 Cards= $9,200
3) HVX + 2 4G P2 Cards + P2 Card Reader/40G Store= $8,500
4) HVX + 2 2G P2 Cards= $6,500

There doesn't seem to be much point in any of them apart from the one with 5 x 4gig cards if user is attempting to hotswap them and be able to record HD uninterrupted with the P2 store - because this P2 store takes about 4mins to transfer a 4gig P2 card. That's more time than it takes to record onto the 4gig card. My understanding is that a 4gig card will give you less recording time than this P2 store transfer time, when recording at the highest quality HD format.
At this transfer rate, whether you use two 8gig or two 4gig, you will not have time using the P2 store to transfer and get first card back into camera before the second card is full. To work this way you will need three or four cards, maybe even only practical using 3 or 4 8gig cards.....
Hope not too many people being misled by the hotswapability of the system - thinking can do it with two cards! Because in Panasonics brochure for the camera it says, 'has two card slots... so continous recording possible by hotswapping', yeah that's true but not with only two cards! ouch! read between the lines and wonder what's the point in buying two cards if gonna be breaking recording anyway!:shocked:

 

[Barra]

Of course, doh! you may be able to record half of the first P2 and then start to transfer it to P2 store if camera let's you seamlessly change onto second card while first is only about half full.
Then you could stagger them I guess for a while anyway, if that's possible but then you'd need to be able to make it hotswap between half full cards... that would be stressful I imagine!

 

[Malcolm Wright]

Of course, doh! you may be able to record half of the first P2 and then start to transfer it to P2 store if camera let's you seamlessly change onto second card while first is only about half full.
Then you could stagger them I guess for a while anyway, if that's possible but then you'd need to be able to make it hotswap between half full cards... that would be stressful I imagine!

Stressful: I think you're right... And also, I don't know about the basic practicality of hotswapping... PCMIA cards don't just slide in like butter... There is some resistance once the connectors come together and I can't imagine swapping a card without affecting the footage adversely.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the hot-swappable aspect of this system at all. If you need to shoot continuously, it looks like firestores will be the only really practical solution. Of course the bigger the P2 cards get in capacity, the higher the chance you can judiciously choose the moment for swapping so that the disruption is minimal...

M.

 

[Stevet]

Stressful: If you need to shoot continuously, it looks like firestores will be the only really practical solution. M.

Agreed!

Man, I can't wait until 32GB or more P2 cards are available.
This will allow 80 minutes non stop 720P, or 32 minutes of 1080P.

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

700 TVlines horizontal resolution on a 16:9 ratio camera is 1240 "pixels" or exactly what you'd expect from a DVCproHD camera, which records a max of 1280x1080 rez. The 750 figure for vertical is 1080i resolution (remember interlace filtering).

Graeme

 

[Sumfun]

Stressful: I think you're right... And also, I don't know about the basic practicality of hotswapping... PCMIA cards don't just slide in like butter... There is some resistance once the connectors come together and I can't imagine swapping a card without affecting the footage adversely.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the hot-swappable aspect of this system at all. If you need to shoot continuously, it looks like firestores will be the only really practical solution. Of course the bigger the P2 cards get in capacity, the higher the chance you can judiciously choose the moment for swapping so that the disruption is minimal...

M.

I think hot swappable means that AFTER the camera switches to the 2nd P2 card, then you can take out the first one. And my understanding is that the P2 Store can download a bit faster than the camera. But it would still be safer with 3 cards. Also, I'd be a little worried about camera shake if you're shooting while hot swapping.

 

[masada1903]

At this transfer rate, whether you use two 8gig or two 4gig, you will not have time using the P2 store to transfer and get first card back into camera before the second card is full. To work this way you will need three or four cards, maybe even only practical using 3 or 4 8gig cards.....
Hope not too many people being misled by the hotswapability of the system - thinking can do it with two cards! Because in Panasonics brochure for the camera it says, 'has two card slots... so continous recording possible by hotswapping', yeah that's true but not with only two cards! ouch! read between the lines and wonder what's the point in buying two cards if gonna be breaking recording anyway!:shocked:

I guess it really depends on what you're using it for. If you're doing a film shoot, you're not that likely to do an eight minute take (though some will), so in theory you would finish transferring your footage from an 8GB to whatever before you needed to use it again. So I don't think hotswapping will be an issue there because I don't think most people (in this category) will need to do it. I think you'd run into the most trouble with 4GB for obvious reasons.

For a film shoot, 4 or more 8GB cards seems like overkill. I mean, yeah, I'd like to see a 10 Gigaquad card come out next week for 35 cents, but seriously guys... Even three 8GB is a lot.

Now if you're doing news or documentary production, that's where you're going to have the most trouble.

In my arrogant, uneducated opinion, it seems to me like the best use for this camera (right now) would be for indy film production. Once the cards get bigger, I can totally see using this for news and other forms that benefit from long record times (though I suspect a lot of stations could afford more cards than indy filmmakers.) If I were doing a film shoot, I would definitely use at least two 4GB cards -- ideally two 8GB cards. So yeah, buyer beware or whatever, but you know... think about what you'll realistically be doing with it.

 

[arno]

I guess it really depends on what you're using it for. If you're doing a film shoot, you're not that likely to do an eight minute take (though some will), so in theory you would finish transferring your footage from an 8GB to whatever before you needed to use it again. So I don't think hotswapping will be an issue there because I don't think most people (in this category) will need to do it. I think you'd run into the most trouble with 4GB for obvious reasons.

For a film shoot, 4 or more 8GB cards seems like overkill. I mean, yeah, I'd like to see a 10 Gigaquad card come out next week for 35 cents, but seriously guys... Even three 8GB is a lot.

Now if you're doing news or documentary production, that's where you're going to have the most trouble.

In my arrogant, uneducated opinion, it seems to me like the best use for this camera (right now) would be for indy film production. Once the cards get bigger, I can totally see using this for news and other forms that benefit from long record times (though I suspect a lot of stations could afford more cards than indy filmmakers.) If I were doing a film shoot, I would definitely use at least two 4GB cards -- ideally two 8GB cards. So yeah, buyer beware or whatever, but you know... think about what you'll realistically be doing with it.

your absolutely right.

arno

 

[Neopics]

Assuming I've made the early-adopters list and manage to get the HVX in time for my shoot this winter, I'm planning on using this workflow:

- Shoot using only a single 4 GB card.
- Once it fills up, stop shooting and offload the card to a Firewire hard drive.
- Erase the card and start shooting again.

This works for me because of the type of project I'm doing. It'll be a scripted shoot in 720/24p, giving me 10 minutes of storage at a time, which is plenty for several takes. We'll be breaking between shots, so that's when I'll do the transfer. It's no different than reloading a film magazine. (Same thing is needed with a 400 foot 16mm magazine or 1000 foot 35mm mag. Only then, you typically want to fill the whole thing first. No such issue with P2.)

Now, having two P2 cards would be nice. Then I could keep shooting while someone else does the transfering in a laptop. But our time won't be that constrained, so it won't be absolutely necessary.

Admittedly, this workflow likely wouldn't be as effective if you were shooting a wedding or stage show. It all depends on the project.

 

[Emanuel]

It'll be a scripted shoot in 720/24p, giving me 10 minutes of storage at a time, which is plenty for several takes.

Or 1080/24p? Why not (under the same method) ? Who works @this level knows that you're completely all right (period) regarding your POV:

Assuming I've made the early-adopters list and manage to get the HVX in time for my shoot this winter, I'm planning on using this workflow:

- Shoot using only a single 4 GB card.
- Once it fills up, stop shooting and offload the card to a Firewire hard drive.
- Erase the card and start shooting again.

This works for me because of the type of project I'm doing. It'll be a scripted shoot in 720/24p, giving me 10 minutes of storage at a time, which is plenty for several takes. We'll be breaking between shots, so that's when I'll do the transfer. It's no different than reloading a film magazine. (Same thing is needed with a 400 foot 16mm magazine or 1000 foot 35mm mag. Only then, you typically want to fill the whole thing first. No such issue with P2.)

Now, having two P2 cards would be nice. Then I could keep shooting while someone else does the transfering in a laptop. But our time won't be that constrained, so it won't be absolutely necessary.

Admittedly, this workflow likely wouldn't be as effective if you were shooting a wedding or stage show. It all depends on the project.

I've been confused 'cause sometimes it seems to be more an events cam than a real indie filmmaking camcorder that it is! (Is not this forum powered by filmmakers to filmmakers?)

<PS> The question is to know if it is a good camera or not, that is, if it goes to fulfill our expectations as Mini-CineAlta@Big Screen (period - the second one).

 

[Gibby]

I've been confused 'cause sometimes it seems to be more an events cam than a real indie filmmaking camcorder that it is! (Is not this forum powered by filmmakers to filmmakers?)

The HVX designed to be just an indie film makers camera?

In their new full-page ad in DV magazine, December issue, Page 5, Panasonic gives their position on your question. If you haven't seen the ad, looking from above it shows an HVX laying on a table next to a media industry trade magazine classified ad page. The obviously freelance owner of the HVX has circled in yellow the freelance jobs he/she wants to apply for. There are 18 different ads the HVX owner has circled. Of the readable ads circled on the page, here's a list of all of the uses of the HVX suggested by Panasonic in the ad:

1) DP for indie film in 24p.
2) Movie of the week shooting in ___p at 24fps.
3) HD Sports Special for Major Cable Channel - shooting 720p at 60 fps.
4) Extreme Sports Videographer - second camera needed for Varicam shoot.
5) Cinematographer for Wildlife Production - 60 minute HD documentary - shooting 720p/24 on DVCProHD.
6) Short Film/HD shoot - HDCAM second camera. Shooting 1080p at 24.
7) News Photogs for Cable News Channel, experience in shooting DVCPRO50
8) HD "B" Roll for Stock House - shooting 1080p/24 or 720p at 24.
9) SD Reality Adventure - shoot from 60i to 24p to deliver different looks.
10) HD Music Videos - Shooting 720p24. Must be familiar with variable frame rates.
11) News Stringer - Looking for shooters...
12) Videographer - shooting 480 _____ or DV.
13) HD Television Special. Cameraman/Editor wanted ___ 1080i at 30 fps on DVCPROHD using P2 cards.
14) New Reality Show - Shooting 720____24/30fps, Experience in HD and variable frame rates required.
15) HD Commercial Production Co. - Looking for cameraman with HD experience. Shooting 24/30fps.
16) Filmmaker to join Faculty...

( the other two circled ads are unreadable)

Analysis of the uses suggested for the HVX by Panasonic in the ad:

Strictly cine-style applications: #'s 1, 2, 6, 16 (4 total)

Both cine-style and ENG-style applications: #'s 5, 8, 10, 13, 14 (5 total)

Strictly ENG-style applications: #'s 3, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 14 (7 total)

Projects to be shown as "films": #'s 1, 6, 16 (3 total)


--------------------------

Summary

Indie filmmaking is just one of the fifteen uses of the HVX that Panasonic suggests in their ad. If you analyze the tech features of the HVX, it has extensive possibilities for non-indie film applications. The DVX is used widely for indie films, but then again it is used extensively for events, television, and other non-indie film applications.

The HVX is positioned as an all-around, versatile camera that may be a freelancers dream camera, especially when the cost of P2 comes down. It straddles the cine-style and ENG-style production worlds. It emphasizes the media convergence need for shooters to be versatile enough to shoot either style of production, and to have the accessories to outfit the HVX for either style of shooting. Very shortly the HVX will be delivered and tested. If the HVX performs as advertised, seasoned professional users, both cine-style and ENG-style, will devise many, many more ways to integrate the HVX in production uses that aren't even on the list above...

DVX User only for indie filmmakers? DVX User may have been started by indie filmmakers, but there are significant numbers of members that also do television, business, video, events, commercials, PSA’s, and a myriad on non-indie film applications. With media convergence its time to ignore the former group designation dividing lines, and realize that an emerging group of motion media professionals has developed the skills to work in every one of the fifteen uses of the HVX that Panasonic lists in their ad. The “video guys” have been learning about cine-style techniques, and the “film guys” have been learning about ENG-style video technology.

We’re all one family now – sharing and learning technology and techniques.


Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[alpi69]

if you add a 0.6 and a 1.6 adapters then the HVX will be versatile. out of the box the lens is too long on the low and and by far too short on the upper end. so if you want to do wildlife and music video with it you will need these. but then the cam will be ready for anything in SD and HD!

 

[Emanuel]

Thx for your concern Gibby and contribution...but it was just irony and also a protest 'cause a lot of the "HVX pronouncements" that I read sometimes forget it (the real revolution to these kind of customers as we) with other kind of fears, anxieties and worries that aren't our problem as if it was. But your certitude - about the versatile nature of the HVX - is correct: there isn't universal truths! So, I insist as I said in a neighbour thread: why not a ONE 4Gb P2 HVX bundle?

<PS> And please, non-stop with that talk regarding the most expensive P2 media JUST because - all of us (and there's a universal truth!) - we need the prices down...

 

[Gibby]

if you add a 0.6 and a 1.6 adapters then the HVX will be versatile. out of the box the lens is too long on the low and and by far too short on the upper end. so if you want to do wildlife and music video with it you will need these. but then the cam will be ready for anything in SD and HD!

True! The HVX has the tech specs to be a true chameleon. Accessorize it for cine-style production and it will be a cine-style camera. Accessorize it for ENG-style production and it will be an ENG-style camera. I'll buy a wide range of ENG and cine accessories for my HVX and simply customize my field production packs with what is needed for what we're shooting that particular day. A cost-effective alternative will be to buy the accessories for the style of shooting you do the most of, and when you do the other style of production, simply rent the accessories that you need for that production.

Bottom line: the HVX should have the tech versatility to shoot any style of production you want to match it with, and this gives it serious potential to generate income - assuming that the shooter has developed the skill sets to be able to shoot both cine-style and ENG-style.

Thus, you may want to ask yourself: "The camera can handle every style of production - but can I?" The extra money you make by being skilled enough to shoot every style could very well be the money that finances your higher interest projects, whether they be indie films, documentaries, or whatever.

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Gibby]

So, I insist as I said in a neighbour thread: why not a ONE 4Gb P2 HVX bundle?

<PS> And please, non-stop with that talk regarding the most expensive P2 media JUST because - all of us (and there's a universal truth!) - we need the prices down...

I agree! When P2 prices come down and capacity of P2 cards goes up, it will unlock the versatility of the HVX. When portable holographic storage, Cineporter, and Firestore become affordable, more versatility will be unlocked! Then no matter what style of production you contract, there will be several recording medium options.

If Panasonic and their equipment partners do it right, they will seriously corner the affordable professional, small form factor HD/SD camera market...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

 

[Emanuel]

When portable holographic storage, Cineporter, and Firestore become affordable, more versatility will be unlocked! Then no matter what style of production you contract, there will be several recording medium options.

If Panasonic and their equipment partners do it right, they will seriously corner the affordable professional, small form factor HD/SD camera market...

Gibby
www.cut4.tv

:thumbsup:

 

[mr._guiyotinne]

Emanuel, i wonder how many of us here in Europe are waiting sleepless for any tidbit of news...

And for Gibby, i´m sure this is all due to happend on 2006! The HVX will be our queen of the year (And maybe the next one too) unless Canon or somebody else guess an affordable way to capture HD-SDI on the fly.

 

[Emanuel]

Emanuel, i wonder how many of us here in Europe are waiting sleepless for any tidbit of news...

:laugh: I'm with you...only an european, like you and me or many others silent(s) spread [you don't even imagine - Jarred, Barry or Jan - how huge this market is...], can figure out... :beer:

 

[tomtv]

does anyone know if the P2 cardreader and 40 gig storage will allow you to record direct to the 40 gig drive? this could help with the P2 card swap issue if you need to do a longer shot than P2 space allows. just wondering.