FS7: The FS7 is now Available with the Zoom Lens... but I can't buy it just yet because...

basspig

basspig

Veteran
Sony hasn't gotten back to me with the results of their audio test to confirm or deny whether it's equal to the PMW-EX3/EX1 cameras, which are essentially DAT-quality and used frequently by me to record Classical and Baroque concerts, including pipe organ.

I've gotten pretty much every other question answered, but holding off on purchase because I don't want to be in the position to have to return the camera if it's deficient compared to the PMW series.
 
...and they will never get back to you. Asking a manufacturer to do anything for you that nobody else is asking for, you'll be waiting a very long time. Unless by "test" you're just looking for specs that a Sony Technical Sales Rep can get from Japan (bit depth, compressed or uncompressed, S/N ratio, etc). Even just getting them to get back on that (when that info is surely on the net somewhere) is a waiting game at best. And really, would you put much stock in any S/N ratio they would tell you anyway, without knowing their methodology?

Honestly, if you want to move forward, just contact a FS7 owner that is near you via this board, get your hands on one, and conduct your own tests.
 
Just what I was going to say.

If you're ever in North Jersey, let me know and I'd gladly test the FS7 with you.

Of course, dual audio to a recorder might be optimal-- you get better picture than with EX and highest quality audio via recorder. These days it's a snap to sync in post.

Ned
 
I recently upgraded from Premiere CS3 to CS6, but synching audio hasn't gotten any easier. I reserve that headache for the big dollar large orchestra concerts where we have a union crew flying the mics on cables and do many channels of audio at once. But for the budget recitals and soloists, I use the camera audio, as we only need 2 channels for these kinds of events. Two Neumann U-87s on a tall stand in the back of the cathedral gets the best pickup of the 32' organ pedals. Presently, with the EX3, that audio isn't any different than if I dragged thousands of dollars of external DAW with me and hired extra crew to move all that gear, and were able to charge the client double, because it doubles the hours I need to produce the finished edit. The drift over time between non-genlocked audio and the cameras is a real nightmare to fix in post! Something like a Zoom H4 is awful that way and cannot be run off a common clock source.

There is an easy way to test cameras and I had a few people do it with the PMW EX1 before I bought the first one. Download a free copy of RightMark Audio Analyzer, run it on a studio DAW or other high quality DAC recording system, feed the output of the studio system into the camera audio jacks, adjust the levels, record the test signals. Take the resulting video into NLE, spit out the audio track by itself, load that into Rightmark and let it compare to the reference--it generates a host of plots for noise, THD, channel crosstalk, frequency response, etc. Everything you would ever need to know about the audio. I've gotten a few people to do the test, and I liked the results, so I bought the EX1 and EX3 cameras in 2008. I don't trust Sony after the horrid HVR-V1U.
 
The FS 7 is able to record 4 channels of 48K, 24 bit audio. 24 bit gives you the headroom you need. The EX series records the 48K audio at 16 bit. A nanoFlash will also record the audio at 48K 24bit.
 
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basspig said:
The drift over time between non-genlocked audio and the cameras is a real nightmare to fix in post!
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I've done a TON of multi camera concerts in the last 15 years. Tiny budgets. Huge budgets. Usually with ProTools rigs and a snake split. Back in the day, Alesis HD24s. At the low-end, a SD 722 or 744 getting two tracks from the house board. Never genlocked.

But I've never had audio drift if the cameras and audio recorder were working right :)

But you can ignore all that. If I were the audio perfectionist you are, I'd get a Sound Devices 722 or 744T, learn to use Pluraleyes, and NEVER look back.
 
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I shoot the larger concerts with a separate audio system that can accept external clock reference to keep it phase locked to the cameras, but that's usually reserved for large orchestras with a decent budget. We record many channels of audio in this situation, so camera doesn't have enough channels. And we record a true 24-bit with preamps that have noise floors in the -136dB range.

What I've been doing for soloists is offer a deep discounted package with stereo audio, 2 mics, 2 cameras for one third the price. The nice thing about the EX series cams is that the audio systems and mic preamps on them are really quite good, if setup properly. 16 bits is more than enough for a concert, since it's capable of 96dB of dynamic range--even more with dither, and the dynamic range of a concert is the peak SPL (105dB) minus the ambient noise floor (empty hall, 42dB) Only 63dB dynamic range possible, so 16-bits is actually overkill.

The thing about Sony specs is you can't trust 'em. Sony HVR-V1U spec quotes as 20-20,000Hz. But in 2007, I and two other people noticed that something was seriously wrong there. I measured the response and found it to be relatively flat from 1200Hz to 4KHz. Outside that range, it drops rapidly. -32.7dB @ 20Hz. Now the manual for the EX3 doesn't even specify audio response, but we measured 20-20,000 with only 1dB variance over the whole range. FS7 manual quotes 50-20,000, but after the HVR's 20-20,000 pie in the sky spec, I don't trust anything Sony puts in their audio spec. I need to verify.

I don't think my clients are going to pay double for me to record separate audio. I have to hire extra crew to transport, set up and break down an audio system, I have to deal with the data transfer, and I have to deal with synching it and keeping it in synch at the end of 2 hours, or it must be genlocked to the camera system and that means BNC cables across the stage. I've been able to carve out a market in the affordable high quality concert recording field because of the EX3's fantastic audio system. The mics go straight in and everything is there in one file per camera. No more discovering that the tympani player's mallet didn't match up with the sound, after I was SURE it was synched properly.

Yeah, I could do separate audio, and charge an extra grand for the additional on-site labor and hours in the edit suite, but after the 2009 slump, I've had to get creative to keep concert business going. That means finding ways to get it done with less equipment and fewer staff, and shortening my edit and render times with GPU accelerated renders and other tricks.

Back to the camera audio, at a basic level, it's a digital audio recorder. Digital knows nothing about frequency response. It goes from DC to Nyquist (1/2 the sampling frequency). You actually have to work hard to mess up the frequency response of a digital recorder--which means expensive filters have to be added to the chain to deviate it from flat response. If it's anything other than flat from 5Hz to 23,000Hz, it means that there are extra components in the signal chain, degrading the signal. It's one thing to have a switchable low-cut filter for ENG work, but there's no excuse in the 21st century to have poor audio on a camera, when it's already been perfected in 2008 with the PMW series.

Still, the fact that Sony's manual for the FS7 says 50-20,000Hz, gives me serious pause. I pondered renting one, but I don't live close to any rental outfit, and doing the mailorder rental would cost $450 for four days--money that could be put toward the purchase of the camera if not spent on rental.
 
With the kind of answer you want/need, you are either going to have to borrow an FS7 or rent one and do your test prior to or double record your shoot. If you have the EX3, you have your backup record unit there. Use a small mixer to feed the audio. Done.

It is interesting to note the freq response does only go to 50 Hz. Must be a roll off filter there.
 
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I have bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear from B&H, so if I was to do this, B&H would be my choice of dealer. The question is whether they would be willing do take five minutes out of their busy day to do this simple test. They tend to be very terse and impatient with pre-sales questions in the past.

I have had forum members test their EX1's and post their results back in '08, which gave me the courage to try another Sony camera. I'm sure the information would be helpful to everyone and the person willing to do the test will benefit from having a full understanding of his camera's audio capabilities beyond the written specs (which Sony are notoriously wrong about in some of their products, mainly the V1U, which didn't come even within a mile of measuring as well as their spec claimed.)

If the FS7 works out, a gradual phase over to FS7 cameras will occur. So the audio system will be relied upon.
 
basspig said:
I have bought tens of thousands of dollars worth of gear from B&H, so if I was to do this, B&H would be my choice of dealer. The question is whether they would be willing do take five minutes out of their busy day to do this simple test. They tend to be very terse and impatient with pre-sales questions in the past.
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In the paragraph above you say you've given BH much business but are not happy with their Pre-sale service but you want to buy this camera from them if someone else provides the answer? We are a service oriented reseller. If your willing to look at a different provider, I'm willing to effort the test. Please PM the test you want run in detail. If I can run the test on your behalf id be happy to in exchange for being rewarded with the sale.
 
I understand wanting to be loyal to B&H as it is great vendor, but places like Abel Cine and Band Pro are able to give a higher level of service. Just look at al the great information Abel Cine has posted over the years re LUT's and gamma's etc. Those are the places to go to find the info you want.
 
I tend to stick with a vendor that:

Doesn't screw me
Has VERY reasonable or free shipping on most items
I can order on Tuesday and have it here on Wednesday
Doesn't charge a 'restocking fee' for items I return within 30 days

I'm probably going to ask them if they'll do a test, though I sense their stance on it is like many on this forum: if you want good audio, hire more staff, more equipment and charge more money, based on their response to my earlier inquiry about this issue.

Regardless of WHO does the test, the results benefit EVERYONE.
 
Lenilenapi said:
I understand wanting to be loyal to B&H as it is great vendor, but places like Abel Cine and Band Pro are able to give a higher level of service. Just look at al the great information Abel Cine has posted over the years re LUT's and gamma's etc. Those are the places to go to find the info you want.
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+1 on that and more…...

I've been using Abel Cine in NYC as my "go to" supplier of cameras and equipment for twenty years or so now and wouldn't go to a big-box store like B&H for any purchase that needs advice or guidance on. Don't forget Abel services much of the equipment they sell and have extremely professional production savvy personal on staff too, not just sales personel. All that has meant a lot to me over the past couple of decades and continues to and through present day.
 
AbelCine seems like a good place, but they have a 15% restocking fee, so if I buy the camera and find that the performance is not good and I return it, they keep about $1550 of my money. B&H only charged a restocking fee if the item is not returned the the same condition (ie, missing UPC code, warranty cards, scratches or other damage to the item).

I put in a request, but will have to wait until the holiday is over before they start accepting e-mail again.
 
As you're in CT why not make an appointment and just visit Abel's spend some time there in their showroom / demo area try out whatever you want and at the same time lay your concerns regarding returns / restocking fees etc on the table?
A purchase such as the one you're considering should be well researched and should include "hand's on" with the gear before you do any deal. I would never buy a camera without going through that process or knowing exactly what I was buying, I never have. As you said, at B&H and like stores that's not easy or indeed possible.
Over all the time and several hundred thousands of dollars spent with Abel's I have never had one occasion to complain and I think many others in this forum would attest to that too.
 
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petermullett said:
As you're in CT why not make an appointment and just visit Abel's spend some time there in their showroom / demo area try out whatever you want and at the same time lay your concerns regarding returns / restocking fees etc on the table?
A purchase such as the one you're considering should be well researched and should include "hand's on" with the gear before you do any deal. I would never buy a camera without going through that process or knowing exactly what I was buying, I never have. As you said, at B&H and like stores that's not easy or indeed possible.
Over all the time and several hundred thousands of dollars spent with Abel's I have never had one occasion to complain and I think many others in this forum would attest to that too.
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Crusty old professionals. Pay no mind to them. What do they know anyway?
 
Ok yoclay, you know I know where you live…..as soon as there's wheelchair access there I'm coming after you…..
 
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Andrew Stone said:
The FS 7 is able to record 4 channels of 48K, 24 bit audio. 24 bit gives you the headroom you need. The EX series records the 48K audio at 16 bit. A nanoFlash will also record the audio at 48K 24bit.
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I was waiting for someone to publish the audio specs. Andrew is spot on with his assessment about the FS7 in-camera audio. It's really quite good. And while the Nano Dlash doesn't do 4k video, it makes a great video/audio back up since you don't have the post syncing issue regarding audio.
If one is holding off migrating to the FS7 because of perceived audio limitations, fear not. It's stellar.
That's not to say the FS7 doesn't have some draw backs, many of which have been addressed on this forum. The latest update takes care of the majority of those issues however; except for the handgrip jumping the rosset when too much pressure is exerted to the grip. I started a thread on the Sony Community site about that and have found mine is not an isolated problem. I was hoping Sony might address this but more than likely I will have to de-construct my handgrip and retrofit it to another rosset system.
 
Audio specs have a lot more to do with the analog mic preamps than the number of bits. You only need 9-bits of audio to record a classical concert because the dynamic range possible is only 63dB. If you're recording fireworks on a field away from crowds, you need 86dB of dynamic range, which is fine for 16 bits.

24 bits is great if you have cryogenic cooled mic preamps that have a noise floor lower than -105dB, but wasted on the FS7, with a likely noise floor of barely -90dB. But since my Neumann U87s have a noise floor of -82dB, the preamps are quiet enough.

That leaves the frequency response. I don't know about the Nanoflash, but I can tell you the Atomos Shogun's analog audio is not very good. It's not as good as the PMW-EX1/EX3's audio. It starts to roll off below 50Hz and is down 3dB at 20Hz. By contrast, a good studio recording ADC/mic pre combo is down 0.05dB @ 5Hz. But all this is lost on Yamaha NS-10 owners, because they can't produce anything below 80Hz anyway. But it makes a world of difference if you are listening on Thigpen TRW-17's, which go down to 1Hz.

I have no issues with other aspects of Sony cameras. The picture I have seen and it is stellar. And I would have assumed the audio was as good as the PMW series, but for the fact that I downloaded the manual and read the spec for the audio, which (though frequency response seems to be a randomly chosen number at Sony, give the V1U's completely unrealistic rating) gave me a cause to question whether Sony intentionally dumbed down the audio system on the FS7.

I really hate going into NYC and avoid it at all costs. The last time I went down there was for a paid production shoot, but parking was a nightmare and my wife's SUV acquired mysterious scratches across the bonnet from being parked in lower Manhattan for a few hours as we filmed an instructional video for one of the the great Jazz legends. And since the cops down there just shoot randomly into the crowd and killed innocent bystanders at Times Square recently, I don't see anymore reason to set foot in that crazy madhouse. I can get most of the answers I need through research and the way I researched the EX1 before purchase.

B&H is on vacation this week, which will give me a little more time to pay off my credit cards and free up enough to make a purchase.
 
basspig said:
Audio specs have a lot more to do with the analog mic preamps than the number of bits. You only need 9-bits of audio to record a classical concert because the dynamic range possible is only 63dB. If you're recording fireworks on a field away from crowds, you need 86dB of dynamic range, which is fine for 16 bits.

24 bits is great if you have cryogenic cooled mic preamps that have a noise floor lower than -105dB, but wasted on the FS7, with a likely noise floor of barely -90dB. But since my Neumann U87s have a noise floor of -82dB, the preamps are quiet enough.

That leaves the frequency response. I don't know about the Nanoflash, but I can tell you the Atomos Shogun's analog audio is not very good. It's not as good as the PMW-EX1/EX3's audio. It starts to roll off below 50Hz and is down 3dB at 20Hz. By contrast, a good studio recording ADC/mic pre combo is down 0.05dB @ 5Hz. But all this is lost on Yamaha NS-10 owners, because they can't produce anything below 80Hz anyway. But it makes a world of difference if you are listening on Thigpen TRW-17's, which go down to 1Hz.

I have no issues with other aspects of Sony cameras. The picture I have seen and it is stellar. And I would have assumed the audio was as good as the PMW series, but for the fact that I downloaded the manual and read the spec for the audio, which (though frequency response seems to be a randomly chosen number at Sony, give the V1U's completely unrealistic rating) gave me a cause to question whether Sony intentionally dumbed down the audio system on the FS7.

I really hate going into NYC and avoid it at all costs. The last time I went down there was for a paid production shoot, but parking was a nightmare and my wife's SUV acquired mysterious scratches across the bonnet from being parked in lower Manhattan for a few hours as we filmed an instructional video for one of the the great Jazz legends. And since the cops down there just shoot randomly into the crowd and killed innocent bystanders at Times Square recently, I don't see anymore reason to set foot in that crazy madhouse. I can get most of the answers I need through research and the way I researched the EX1 before purchase.

B&H is on vacation this week, which will give me a little more time to pay off my credit cards and free up enough to make a purchase.
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HB rentals is here CT. Give them a call and see if they have the FS7 for rent.
 
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