The Footage from Leo's shoot...

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Thing around here have gotten really nasty, lot harder for the people who want to have meaningful discussions to do so over the din. Would be great if the moderators rolled up their sleeves and started cleaning up Dodge, or someone's going to have to start an AF100 Listserv.
 
mrmoonay said:
So as much as I respect professionals and are thankful for the work they put in... the issue of trust is always in the back of my mind. Is the advice they're giving best for me? ...Or best for their business? Nobody is going to give away free advice that could possible make you more successful than them unless they are profiting from it or close family. This is the real world....
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Having worked in the motion picture business for over 35 years one thing that I have learned is that making a motion picture is a collaborative effort. I have never experienced a true pro who did not take pride in his/her work and wiliness to share their experience with an interested colleague. Barry Green is one of the many professionals on this site who shares his knowledge with out receiving any compensation other than the joy of knowing the information he sharers might be of help to others.

With the AF100, Sony F3, Red and the other new large frame video cameras we now have the tools to produce moving images with a Depth of Field, Tonality and Feel once reserved for 35mm film at a fraction of the cost. Along with these new tools comes the need to understand the craft to get best look out of them. To get the best out of the new tools the lessons of the past become more important, Lighting, Lens, Focus, Exposure, Camera handling.... Yes most of the new cameras will produce a image right out of the box but how good of an image will depend on your knowledge of your new tool and how to get the best out of it. I hope this forum is a place where we can share our knowledge, understanding as well as questions & concerns about these exciting new tools.
 
TimTheFoolMan said:
With all due respect, -1.

One of the huge differences here, in my experience, is that film/video professionals remember recent technology waves well enough that they DO NOT fear new talent. This visible everywhere, in that editors, colorists, recording engineers, camera ops, and other creative professionals are not threatened by a noob like me who picks up some new technology. I haven't seen any of these people "pissed off" at the onward march of technology.

If anything, the more skilled and experienced pros seem to be the first to reach out and give me a hand. Why would they do this? Because they know that the value they bring to the equation isn't knowledge of the menus in the HVX or EX-1, or the idiosyncrasies of a Cooke lens. What they bring is knowledge that trancends technology.
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I agree. A perfect demonstration is the fact that there's professionals like Barry Green here giving advice and participating in this forum.
 
And guys like Leo Ticheli and Timur Civan and Ryan Patrick O'Hara and Macgregor and Zak Forsman and Matt Gottschalk and Matt Gettemeier and Perrone Ford and Erik Olson and Mikko Wilson and Scott Webster and Graeme Nattress and Filippo Chiesa and Jarred Land and ... man, I probably could go on for hours listing all the excellent contributors we have, who are all consummate professionals and well-paid successful businessmen. And not one of them asks for anything in return for what they contribute here. And not one of them is scared, in any way, of a kid's skate video. Out of the 65,000+ members we have on this forum, I think I've heard of exactly >one< who has ever espoused the philosophy of "I wish the equipment was more expensive so other people couldn't buy it." By my reckoning, that puts us at 64,999 to 1.
 
I guess I am old, Im baffled by the complexity of a 7d from best buy. (sarcasm). Is all this new technology changing the way light hits an object? does it change good composition? A DSLR that can record video? oh no 22+ years of video experience down the tubes! The best cinematographers are artist. In a resent interview with Cinematographer Ward Russell he was asked, "How did you develop your visual style?" His reply: "I spent a lot of time in art galleries looking at paintings from the Baroque period. I was very enthralled by their use of lighting in the 1600’s. It was the most dramatic form of lighting I could find at the time and I believe my lighting style evolved from that."
 
DrHST said:
Thing around here have gotten really nasty, lot harder for the people who want to have meaningful discussions to do so over the din. Would be great if the moderators rolled up their sleeves and started cleaning up Dodge, or someone's going to have to start an AF100 Listserv.
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I'll be your huckleberry

: )
 
Ozark said:
In a recent interview with Cinematographer Ward Russell he was asked, "How did you develop your visual style?" His reply: "I spent a lot of time in art galleries looking at paintings from the Baroque period. I was very enthralled by their use of lighting in the 1600’s. It was the most dramatic form of lighting I could find at the time and I believe my lighting style evolved from that."
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+1. Every great cinematographer I've talked to has said the same kind of thing. Study light. Ansel Adams, Vittario Storaro, Conrad Hall, Macgregor, or Raphael, all made amazing images and cinematographers love to study how light falls across an object and what it does to that object, and then these great artists (in whatever medium they choose) set out to recreate or create based on that.

It really, really, really doesn't have anything to do with a 7D or a skate video.

Really.
 
mrmoonay:
"So to all you professional that I've been arguing with with. I'm sorry. It's not a respect issue. I respect you guys and your work very much. It's trust... "

okay fine you don't trust some of the pros here. you've been on this site 1 month so you don't really know anyone very well. You're actually the one who is coming off as very arrogant. And the comment about the $100k skate video is laugh out loud hilarious.
 
mrmoonay said:
I'm so tired of the whole "I'm professional, so therefore correct" talk here. It's sickening and offensive. Besides, the word "professional" is quite irrelevant in field regarding constantly changing technology. You have 30 years of professional experience... So what? What if next year iphones are recording RAW 10k footage up to 150fps? Things have changed again. All of your experience with Beta-Cams, Varicams, 35mm, and yes even DSLRs, ect... is irrelevant. Now you're on the same level as 20 year old undergrads again. Any experience learned with obsolete equipment is now also obsolete. This is why editors/colorists were pissed off 10 years ago... That's why recording studio professional were pissed off 15 years ago... And it's why video professionals and cinematographers are pissed off now. Technology is amazing if you're a amateur and life-threatening when you actually become a professional. Some of the worst advice you will ever get as an aspiring professional is from professionals... because they are trying to protect their careers and fields in the way that they learned them. No professional cinematographer is going to steer you towards cheaper/better technology that could put them out of work. It's an unspoken mindset that is based on the amateurs faith in a professional, and the professionals fear of new talent.

So as much as I respect professionals and are thankful for the work they put in... the issue of trust is always in the back of my mind. Is the advice they're giving best for me? ...Or best for their business? Nobody is going to give away free advice that could possible make you more successful than them unless they are profiting from it or close family. This is the real world. Be mindful amateurs. Which is why I'm done debating this noise issue. It's stupid to argue with fans and professionals on an obvious agenda. It's akin to a Honda car salesmen telling you that Honda is the best car in the world an choosing any other brand is dumb. Why would he lie? He's a professional car dealer... right?. Does that mean that the AF-100 won't be a great camera? No. But I'm going to wait to hear what the masses, amateurs, and end viewers have to say. For their opinions are equal... if not more important.

So to all you professional that I've been arguing with with. I'm sorry. It's not a respect issue. I respect you guys and your work very much. It's trust...
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Sorry man, you kinda lost credibility with that one.
 
Mike@AF said:
Sorry man, you kinda lost credibility with that one.
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He hadn't a while ago?

2 points:

1, I really feel like some people have little to nothing to contribute to the discussion, often times because they won't listen to reason or assume that they have the exclusive inside on the truth. And it's just not true. I really hope that alot of us can just choose to ignore said posters who are in it for a fight, because they have something to prove. One of my favorite leaders to listen to says, "Stay above the fray", and I think that it's often better to just ignore the naysayers and backbiters.

2, BLACK BALANCE, LOL! What is this, digital camera 101? I'm not laughing at the experts "messing it up", I'm laughing at all this DRAMA and it's probably as simple as a proper black balancing, AKA USER ERROR. Which has been what, 95% of the reasons why anyone has been "displeased" by this camera, user error. This is hilarious! Everyone points to the AF and panasonic for the problem, when truly we, the shooters forget to run it properly. Love the irony...
 
By mere definition this is an impossiblity. By definition a skate video is a cliche and a one trick poney.. unless maybe you are Spike Jonze. We've all done them, but it's nothing to commend.


mrmoonay said:
Sure they want better quality for cheaper... but they also don't want 16-year-olds running around making skate videos that look like a $100k production. That hurts their business.
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I am sorry to say this guys..... but this thread is so way off track it has become meaningless in what should be exciting times.

Where are the Moderators and what are they doing about it?
 
That's an eloquently well written response. I love when I get the young kids right out of school telling me I could learn something from the young guys. They think they know everything and yet 3 months down the line they are working at guitar center and have sold all their gear to pay their rent....

TimTheFoolMan said:
With all due respect, -1.

I jumped into Desktop Publishing back in the mid-80's, when anyone with a toaster Mac (512 Mac or Mac Plus) and PageMaker 1.0 thought they were a pre-press house. I know I did. What I soon realized is that there are things that crafstmen have learned, little factoids and processes, along with their craft, and sometimes confuse those things for the craft itself. With less than $10,000 of equipment, I was able to produce files that shocked the old pre-press guys when it came off the Linotronic. At the same time, I started to realize that in addition to all the factoids and processes that my new technology had made obsolete, these guys understood fundamental principles of design that I just didn't fathom.

The same thing happened when I taught myself C++, and started competing with Comp Sci majors who were using straight C. I had productivity out the wazoo, but no deeper understanding of design. The democratization of media that technology makes available is a good thing, but putting the camera in my hand doesn't instantly make me Alfred Hitcock.

One of the huge differences here, in my experience, is that film/video professionals remember recent technology waves well enough that they DO NOT fear new talent. This visible everywhere, in that editors, colorists, recording engineers, camera ops, and other creative professionals are not threatened by a noob like me who picks up some new technology. I haven't seen any of these people "pissed off" at the onward march of technology.

If anything, the more skilled and experienced pros seem to be the first to reach out and give me a hand. Why would they do this? Because they know that the value they bring to the equation isn't knowledge of the menus in the HVX or EX-1, or the idiosyncrasies of a Cooke lens. What they bring is knowledge that trancends technology.

Or, as Lee Trevino once said when asked about a specific brand of golf clubs, "It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."

When Warrior Chief looks at the results and the workflow that created it, and THEY are impressed, I will challenge and disagree with their assessment with great caution, lest I be rushing in where angels know not to stumble. - Tim
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