The EOS 60D has been announced

Ben_B said:
Usually that can be the emotional high point though.
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Even so, if you're not ready for it, it's kind of moot, right? You can't see into the future that your subject is going to start raising his/her voice in time for you to start adjusting the gain incrementally.

The solution is always give them room to get louder in the first place.
 
subtleinspiration said:
You can't predict what happens, so you're going to ride the audio gain AFTER they've peaked (usually it's a quick deal and by the time you turn the channel down they are back to planet Earth), and then ramp it up again when the audio becomes too quiet once they've calmed down?

I had fixing that kind of thing in post, BTW. (riding the audio gain)
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Just to add to your comment

You are absolutely right about not being able to always anticipate peaks and valleys in audio levels. Best practice for single mic recording is to send the signal to two channels.
Channel 1 set to -12db at normal dialog levels
Channel 2 set to -18db at normal dialog levels

This gives 6db extra headroom on Channel2 for unexpected peaks with no clipping.

Clipped levels cannot be fixed in post...only minimized
 
Paul Nordin said:
Just to add to your comment

You are absolutely right about not being able to always anticipate peaks and valleys in audio levels. Best practice for single mic recording is to send the signal to two channels.
Channel 1 set to -12db at normal dialog levels
Channel 2 set to -18db at normal dialog levels

This gives 6db extra headroom on Channel2 for unexpected peaks with no clipping.

Clipped levels cannot be fixed in post...only minimized
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As an interesting note, the Sony PCM-D50 recorder I use records two signals on two gain paths and switches to the second if you clip automatically. It's a pretty cool feature.

And I'll tell you this, you CAN fix some clipped levels in post, this is NOT something you EVER want to do :) I had to fix a guy yelling and drew in the waveforms. It was painful and slow and something I hope to NEVER do again EVER EVER!
 
Anyone know if you can set the two channels to different levels on the Canon DSLRs? I forget and I don't have one in front of me. (5D/60D.) That way you could just have one hot and one cold but I kind of doubt it...
 
grimepoch said:
As an interesting note, the Sony PCM-D50 recorder I use records two signals on two gain paths and switches to the second if you clip automatically. It's a pretty cool feature.!
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For each channel it does that, so that you can still have separate inputs record to each track? Or does it take one input and utilize both tracks? Either way, that is pretty cool.
 
bluesgeek said:
For each channel it does that, so that you can still have separate inputs record to each track? Or does it take one input and utilize both tracks? Either way, that is pretty cool.
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Doesn't look like it. The Engadget quick look video shows setting the audio level. It sure looks like you can't set the channel independently.
 
Timbit said:
Too bad it doesn't have a microphone input. :(
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What do you mean? It has a 3.5mm stereo input. You can use a mono (like a Rode VideoMic) or stereo (Rode Stereo VideoMic) microphone just fine.

So just like the 550D and 7D it can record stereo audio, using an external microphone. It's only the built-in mic that is mono only. There is only one gain control that manages both channels.
 
grimepoch said:
And I'll tell you this, you CAN fix some clipped levels in post, this is NOT something you EVER want to do :) I had to fix a guy yelling and drew in the waveforms. It was painful and slow and something I hope to NEVER do again EVER EVER!
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As I said, you cannot "fix" clipped levels, you can only minimize them. I own an audio post facility and we deal with this stuff day-in/out. Minimized to me means make acceptable. That is possible with incredibly tedious waveform editing. Make sonically transparent and indistinguishable from pristinely recorded signal? That is not possible and most people punt and ADR/Foley the problem away.

WRT dual gain controls, that is only possible with a dual sound system (which most DSLR shooters use) like the H4N, or the Sound Devices 744T that I use. What goes into camera is for guide only. The actual production tracks from the field recorder are synced to picture in post. That's where the gain management happens between the low/high gain tracks.
 
I don't know if we are all talking about the same thing. My inquiry on post 152 is about the Sony PCM D-50. Are the replies addressing separate gain paths answering that question?

Also, unfortunately, the H4N doesn't allow for independent L/R gain control. You can set the level for both internal mics, or for both external inputs. If you wanted to do the -12dB/-16dB trick, you'd have to split the mic signal and pad or preamp it separately before the H4N.

That's why I am asking how the Sony works.
 
so, when this bad boy getting released? I'm selling my t2i tonight and am traveling to montreal next friday, kind of want one for my trip ;)
 
Thats a question I'd love to hear the answer to. I kind of doubt it will hold the HD signal while recording. The 7D has two digic pricessors and hence it's ability to record and display the HD. 60D only has one of those puppies.
 
Paul Nordin said:
As I said, you cannot "fix" clipped levels, you can only minimize them. I own an audio post facility and we deal with this stuff day-in/out. Minimized to me means make acceptable. That is possible with incredibly tedious waveform editing. Make sonically transparent and indistinguishable from pristinely recorded signal? That is not possible and most people punt and ADR/Foley the problem away.

WRT dual gain controls, that is only possible with a dual sound system (which most DSLR shooters use) like the H4N, or the Sound Devices 744T that I use. What goes into camera is for guide only. The actual production tracks from the field recorder are synced to picture in post. That's where the gain management happens between the low/high gain tracks.
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Well when I say fix, I mean, I recreated the waveform by hand at the clipped points as they were short. To me it was fixed because I created the missing data, but in reality, I basically just fabricated the sound at that point, like removing a blemish in photoshop. I think it's all semantics at this point, however, you are right, as I learned, it is easier to just foley/ADR. In this case, I couldn't get the actor back and his performance was pretty crazy in terms of how screams go so I just chose to fix it. There have been some that are so incredibly bad, I just couldn't fix them reasonably and we just used someone else and I used match EQ settings to get their voices as close as possible.

Pertaining to dual-gain, I've not seen this on any DSLR. I use a Sony PCM-D50, and now that I have gone back through the manual on it, what it has is somewhat of a limiter. If this signal goes above 0dB, it uses a second set of circuity that is 20dB lower that the current gain setting and uses this instead. During the overload event, the secondary pathway is what is recorded to minimize clipping, at the cost of changing the dynamics at that point. A real dual system would give you more freedom as you can pick how you want to incorporate the two gain paths, but having used this for a few years, in the rare instances I do get an over that I want to keep, it has always sounded good to me.

Here is the manual, page 43 has the details on the limiter:

http://www.avisoft.com/PCM-D50.pdf

This recorder along with a few Zooms we have work really well. I've also used a Tascam Field recorder that worked great too, but I opted for the Sony for 2 reasons. (1) It is a lot lighter and VERY rugged. It is built like a tank, and I have dropped it. (2) The converters in the sony were VERY quiet. When I record ambient sounds like the forest, or room tone, if I need to crank up the ambience, the SNR is much smaller in the Sony. When I had the Zoom H4, I could hear the noise of the converters and didn't like it.

And while I have not used this specifically myself, our editors use this:

http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

Which can sync audio/video files on a Final Cut timeline based on the audio. They say this really takes all the work out of using a secondary recorder (other than keeping good track of your files).

I only mention this in terms of the 60D is that while I was originally upset about the 7D not having gain control, I have found that I run with a stabilizer almost ALWAYS with my 7D and running a cord from the 7D is not an option :) All these cameras with rolling shutter issues work A LOT better on a stabilizer, so I've just changed the way I work. Also, using a crane and a dolly, again, the on board hasn't been very useful for those. Of course, this is for all narrative work so for other uses, I could definitely see the higher need for better recording.

It's a great to have feature, but not as important as I originally wanted.

Now Moire/Aliasing....that is still my problem :(
 
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