Hmmm... What's that Fruit company that makes computers ?
The Emperor's Memory Cards Are Wearing No Clothes !!!
- Thread starter TheDingo
- Start date
Hmmm... What's that Fruit company that makes computers ?
It's "nothing new" when a CEO spreads disinformation, or "alternative facts", or maybe a more accurate description would be lies?, about his product and his competitor's products?
Perhaps you're right. Perhaps we should all be more jaded and cynical. Perhaps we shouldn't stand up for truth, justice, and rule of law because it's uncommon to do so.
If so, then personally, I think that's a damning judgement of our present society.
Then perhaps you could have included your opinion about the morality of this topic in your comment?
You said "This whole debate; a billionaire knows how to make money. Who'd have thought?"
As if this whole discussion thread was about RED's profit motive. Every business has a profit motive.
The reason we're talking about RED is because their CEO chose to spread "alternative facts" about their products and others' products in a very public fashion. Not too smart IMO.
I see some of people in here trying to derail the conversation into these misleading dead ends. Please don't follow them there. IMO, this conversation is too important.
When I first started in retail sales, one of my first lessons was, "People buy emotionally, then defend their purchasing decisions rationally".
A real life example from about a week ago. A friend has a German made car (with a turbocharger). We both agree that he can get it tuned (manifold, intercooler, exhaust replacement, ECU remap). There's a reputable tuner in the greater LA area who seems to know the whole process very well but my friend is hesitant to get it done and instead keeps drive-testing a bunch of new and used cars in the $35,000-$55,000 range.
This was our conversation.
Me : Instead of spending thirty to fifty grand on a new vehicle, get your car tuned and chipped and you'll have a hot sports car for almost nothing.
Him : At that tune shop?
Me : Well, that's the one I found on forums. I am sure there are others.
Him : Nah, that's too far to drive.
Me : Sorry? What do you mean it's too far?
Him : It's over an hour each way.
Me : Well, after you get it done, you won't have to drive there anymore.
Him : You don't know how bad the drive is. You haven't lived in LA in two decades.
Me: You drive to Palm Springs, don't you?
Him : That's different.
Me : Yes, it's much further away.
Him : I am not going to get the car tuned. It's all there's to it.
A real life example from about a week ago. A friend has a German made car (with a turbocharger). We both agree that he can get it tuned (manifold, intercooler, exhaust replacement, ECU remap). There's a reputable tuner in the greater LA area who seems to know the whole process very well but my friend is hesitant to get it done and instead keeps drive-testing a bunch of new and used cars in the $35,000-$55,000 range.
This was our conversation.
Me : Instead of spending thirty to fifty grand on a new vehicle, get your car tuned and chipped and you'll have a hot sports car for almost nothing.
Him : At that tune shop?
Me : Well, that's the one I found on forums. I am sure there are others.
Him : Nah, that's too far to drive.
Me : Sorry? What do you mean it's too far?
Him : It's over an hour each way.
Me : Well, after you get it done, you won't have to drive there anymore.
Him : You don't know how bad the drive is. You haven't lived in LA in two decades.
Me: You drive to Palm Springs, don't you?
Him : That's different.
Me : Yes, it's much further away.
Him : I am not going to get the car tuned. It's all there's to it.
G
Guest
Guest
The question may be, why single out Red, and what outcome do you want?
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
AFAICS no one singled out Red.
On the contrary: Red attacked Jinni.
Jinni responded robustly, and didn't take to being bullied.
Who should he single out in a thread about Red? In a thread in which many have trashed Red, more interesting is why you choose to single him out. I single you out because, well, what outcome do you want?
Yeah, it's all a bit tedious now.
John Brawley
Well-known member
I think some are shocked at the typical markup on a product if you simply add up the component costs.
But actually what's driving the rage is the mis-direction and outright deception about what was going on, and frankly, deleting the entire thread also looks suspect. It's easy to delete the individual posts that are personal attacks (i didnt see those posts before it got pulled)
I'm also sure they did it to stop Jini from quoting the principals involved back at them as they painted themselves into a corner for what must now be overdue PT3.
All he's done so far is use RED principals own words and line them up against what he finds when he opens a mag.
JB
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
Quite so... it was RED who picked this fight AFAIKS. Red attacked Jinni and all Jinni did was hold a mirror up to them.
I have recently bought some kit that cost way more than the cost of the components but it is a specialised part with a low volume market. So I paid with no argument
OTOH The same company had an expensive component that is fairly standard if "well engineered". I bought an equally good version for half the cost from another manufacturer.
The original company is not claiming theirs is "special technology" just "well engineered" neither are they attacking the other company for the lower price of theirs nor saying it is inferior engineering.
Red OTOH made claims about the technical superiority of their products and the inferiority of the competitor.
BOTH sets of claims Red made appear to be false.
This is a pity.
I suspect had the held their hands up to it and switched to better SSD's, that is better SSD's than Jinni, and dropped the price a bit (OK a lot) Red would have come out of it far better.
It will also cost them a fraction the cost of legal action and more important not have such a huge dent in their reputation.
Red's statements, whether official or on their own forums by those connected to the company, can easily become a target for the FTC. In that case, anyone on Red's payroll making a public reply can be considered an extension of the company.
That said, companies in general make plenty of dubious assertions. I have pointed out on mildly related threads how some car manufacturers inflate the power and acceleration times (Ford) of their vehicles while others (Porsche, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota) understate it. As an example, Veloster N was previewed as a 5.9 0-60. Considering its weight and power, it looked far too slow. Indeed, upon a release, car mags tested it at 5.2. Supra previewed at 4.1 but, a month later, car mags had it rated at 3.8. Ford, on the other hand, claimed 5.0 for 2.3L Ecoboost but was barely tested at 5.5. These times are informal and not controlled by any authority. Nonetheless, they're a total fudge and can go either way.
PS. But, to be fair to Ford, here's its "conservative" fudge. On the Roush supercharged Mustang GT - factory approved and sold at dealers - Ford gives a 4 second estimate, roughly the same as the naturally aspirated GT. That sounds ridiculous on its face since the naturally aspirated GT has 460 stated HP and Roush Level One gets it to about 680. After some net surfing, I found a UK based site that gave the Roush mod a 2.9. And some dealers in the US were offering a basic Roush mod at a lower price (~ $45,000) than a fully loaded Mustang GT or Bullitt ($52,000-$55,000). Of course, Ford wants to sell some factory made GT 500's, which start at ~ $74,000 but can go up much higher, and thus is silent on cars that perform like it but for a lot less money.
PPS. The 2020 GT500 has a dual clutch transmission but a lot of buyers want a manual anyway.
Edited for a tad more accuracy.
That said, companies in general make plenty of dubious assertions. I have pointed out on mildly related threads how some car manufacturers inflate the power and acceleration times (Ford) of their vehicles while others (Porsche, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota) understate it. As an example, Veloster N was previewed as a 5.9 0-60. Considering its weight and power, it looked far too slow. Indeed, upon a release, car mags tested it at 5.2. Supra previewed at 4.1 but, a month later, car mags had it rated at 3.8. Ford, on the other hand, claimed 5.0 for 2.3L Ecoboost but was barely tested at 5.5. These times are informal and not controlled by any authority. Nonetheless, they're a total fudge and can go either way.
PS. But, to be fair to Ford, here's its "conservative" fudge. On the Roush supercharged Mustang GT - factory approved and sold at dealers - Ford gives a 4 second estimate, roughly the same as the naturally aspirated GT. That sounds ridiculous on its face since the naturally aspirated GT has 460 stated HP and Roush Level One gets it to about 680. After some net surfing, I found a UK based site that gave the Roush mod a 2.9. And some dealers in the US were offering a basic Roush mod at a lower price (~ $45,000) than a fully loaded Mustang GT or Bullitt ($52,000-$55,000). Of course, Ford wants to sell some factory made GT 500's, which start at ~ $74,000 but can go up much higher, and thus is silent on cars that perform like it but for a lot less money.
PPS. The 2020 GT500 has a dual clutch transmission but a lot of buyers want a manual anyway.
Edited for a tad more accuracy.
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Liam Hall
Veteran
You obviously missed my earlier comment abouts his glasses being made from "Unobtanium" and that I was banned from DVInfo for pointing out some of Red's sharp practice or do you generally struggle with irony?
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jamedia.uk
Well-known member
Jinni have release part 3.... not putting the link here as you can find it if you really want to. It is 37 minutes!!
First part looks as the 4.7 inch add-on monitor and and Jinni is unhappy because the screen used is the cheapest standard screen you can get from that Taiwanese supplier with a standard DVI driver MCU. Their point is Red could have made a far better HD monitor for $10 more per screen, from the same supplier, upping the component cost from $50 to $60(excluding the case which is the same in either case) on a product costing $1450. A fair point and the same one they make with the RED Media.
Through to be fair RED made no claims AFAIKS about the monitor that Jinni can say are incorrect.
The second far longer part of the video is a detailed attack on RED's Patents.
All I have to say on that is Jinni had better be 100% right or they will be taken to the cleaners for that video. I don't think it is clever to produce that sort of video in the middle of a court case. Regardless of it being factually right or not I would think it is still Contempt of Court? YouTube is not the place for the parties to fight a patent claim which is why I have not posted the link here. .
First part looks as the 4.7 inch add-on monitor and and Jinni is unhappy because the screen used is the cheapest standard screen you can get from that Taiwanese supplier with a standard DVI driver MCU. Their point is Red could have made a far better HD monitor for $10 more per screen, from the same supplier, upping the component cost from $50 to $60(excluding the case which is the same in either case) on a product costing $1450. A fair point and the same one they make with the RED Media.
Through to be fair RED made no claims AFAIKS about the monitor that Jinni can say are incorrect.
The second far longer part of the video is a detailed attack on RED's Patents.
All I have to say on that is Jinni had better be 100% right or they will be taken to the cleaners for that video. I don't think it is clever to produce that sort of video in the middle of a court case. Regardless of it being factually right or not I would think it is still Contempt of Court? YouTube is not the place for the parties to fight a patent claim which is why I have not posted the link here. .
If Jinni is not registered in the US, Red would have to file in British courts and that's not worth it from the financial perspective.
And, technically speaking, there's nothing wrong with Jinni's video (presuming all the facts are correct). Truth is the ultimate defense. Besides, there is a bunch of "teardown" videos on YouTube. How else would you know that your $1,200 iPhone is only $250 worth of parts. (the numbers are rounded off for the Apple, Inc)
And, technically speaking, there's nothing wrong with Jinni's video (presuming all the facts are correct). Truth is the ultimate defense. Besides, there is a bunch of "teardown" videos on YouTube. How else would you know that your $1,200 iPhone is only $250 worth of parts. (the numbers are rounded off for the Apple, Inc)
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
The problem is (IANAL) if you don't defend you loose it. Though there is currently (see the links in this thread) a Law suit on this currently in progress in the US.
There's the rub "presuming all the facts are correct" Lawyers, on both sides, can and will pick things apart and emphasis and de-emphasize to prove night is actually early dawn and therefore day..... Also you only need one thing to be wrong and you are "not right" and therefore can not win (even if you are 99.999 correct)
You poor naive fool
Money is usually the ultimate defence.
Jinni haven't just done a "teardown" they have added a lot of opinion and comparison to their own kit and then turned RED's own comments back on them re quality, design and other claims.
The problem with your comment re $1,200 of parts and $250 components is that there is also a LOT custom electronics hardware and a hell of a lot of software in there. In the case of the RED memory cards and the Monitor ($60 parts $1450 retail) the disparity is larger and there is no software component. You would have a point if you were talking about the RED cameras but not, it appears, for the memory cards and the 4.7 monitor.
Many a law suit is filed to prevent other actions, even if there is no award. Other law suits are filed to force a financial burden on the defendant.
IMO, there's little sense for Red to pursue this in the courts. Its fan base is undeterred by the findings.
Their fate ultimately is under threat of the technological advancement. 6K for $2,500 leaves far fewer reasons to spend $30,000 on the same type of performance.
IMO, there's little sense for Red to pursue this in the courts. Its fan base is undeterred by the findings.
Their fate ultimately is under threat of the technological advancement. 6K for $2,500 leaves far fewer reasons to spend $30,000 on the same type of performance.
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
I would agree that a lot of the RED fan base are publicly defending them. I suspect privately Jinni might be getting a LOT more sales of their memory cards. Actually a master stroke for Jinni would be if they went to the better grade of SSD drives than RED. IE a better quality product and a 1/3rd the cost.
With the revelation on the 4.7 inch monitor also being the entry level LCD screen people will be wondering what other RED accessories are also cheap components. IF the RED Monitor connector is not patented Jinni could probably start doing those way under the price of RED s for the same or better quality screen....
This will certainly dent new sales for RED and as you say technology is marching on with higher specs at lower prices. It depends if Red were trying to make as much money short term with a one off or looking to be a long term camera maker. In pure business sense the short term high gain is attractive, probably more so than the long term. Red may have been expecting the bubble to burst but not just yet.
Though I do think this last video from Jinni over steps the line a bit as most of it should be discussed in court not social media and Youtube.
However as some one with no dog in this fight it is fascinating to observe.
(Being British in the middle of Brexit we are living in a very fragile glass house and should not be throwing stones at anyone
)dustwaterwindfire
Active member
After watching all 3 of the videos from Jinni all I can say is this is sad. Not just Red's actions but so many people on this board just respond and say "welcome to capitalism" somehow suggesting fraud is an acceptable part of capitalism. It is not. Red should be held accountable.
There's a difference between outright fraud and puffery. One would have to go through Red's official and implied statements with a fine tooth comb to even cobble up a sufficient evidence for a court filing. I would assume that everything official has been vetted by a team of high priced lawyers. And everything on RedUser is a gray area.
The rest depends on the fan base allegiance to the brand. The concept has been brought up in other threads, specifically with regards to Apple. Red users seem to be as loyal to the company as any other's. That loyalty is about to be severely tested.
PS. As to "greed", the human behavior is based on the incentives, both positive and negative.
dustwaterwindfire
Active member
respectfully disagree, fraud is pretty simple and watching the vid. the statements from Red higher ups are def. not cobbled together with a "fine tooth comb" they are simple big statements claiming "millions" of dollars spent ensuring these proprietary SSD's are special and safer to use than SSDs costing a fraction of the price, simply not true. Fraud. Made in the USA? is fraud and a joke, a slap in the face to all companies who really try to make their product in the USA. I wouldnt put Red in the same cat. as apple either. IMO Apple OS is worth all the money they ask all the stupid dongles they require etc.. They have higher prices for sure, but no product that comes close to being marked marked up 42 times its value as the mini-mag is. Im just so tired of big businesses getting away with stuff like this.