The Emperor's Memory Cards Are Wearing No Clothes !!!

Paul F said:
I think what Mitch is getting at is that SSDs have to be managed carefully in order for them to remain in peak writing condition. One problem is that the NAND gates wear out. They only last for so many cycles. So they have to manage 'wear leveling' so that the wear on each cell is as even as possible and the whole drive doesn't wear out too quickly.

Another issue is that performance of the drive can degrade as it fills up and gets fragmented. So write speeds can go down if this is not managed well. To me, that's all part of proper design. Perhaps that is the algorithms RED speaks of.

None of that has anything to do with Jinni vs RED as far as I can tell. They both buy the same chips (SSD card) and put them in a similar package. The RED camera firmware is going to do the same thing with both cards because they have the same chips in them (allegedly).

[edit] The latest video says that RED does not allow single clips to be deleted. A Mag can only be re-formated to erase it. If that's true, that lends credence to the idea that they really want top performance and don't want to risk degradation of the write speed through fragmentation.
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This is basically it. What a drives listed specs are and how they actually perform are generally two very different things. This is because of purposefully obtuse and limited detail in the specs. Think of it like a car with a top speed rating. I had an old Jeep Grand Wagoneer with a top speed of 110mph, but I also know that if I drove it at that speed for more than a few minutes all sorts of bad things could happen. The specs are always at optimal settings, but what happens to that drive that claims 2500 read/write cycles after it hits say, cycle 1200? How many blocks are likely unusable? Sure the write speed is high when the card is empty, but what happens when you get to about 60% full, the NAND has used up 15% of its overflow capacity due to dead blocks, and the rest of the card is fragmented all over the place trying to avoid those black holes? Does that card still maintain a minimum spec data rate, or is it going to start skipping frames on you because your video files are so fat blasting into it nonstop, unlike a laptop with an excel sheet that will simply wait in a buffer until the drive can find some space?

There’s only one way to know how SSDs will perform, and that is to continuously test multiples of them over a long period. At CD we had to commission a specific build for our SSDs and it was over-engineered to hell and back. In fact there was only one manufacturer who was willing to step up to make us what we wanted. They thought we were crazy but they were used to computers not video recorders with the crazy high sustained data rates. I remember the day one of the SSDs on the test bench finally failed. It had gone through something like 4 times its rated cycles, which meant that we were filling it up and offloading it as fast as we could (Uncompressed CinemaDNG is great that way!) for something like 14 months. We put about 8 years worth of heavy labor onto that card in that time, so we were all suitably impressed with the performance. But you should have seen all the stacks of other brands and designs that could not keep up.
 
Thats a pretty level headed view on the issue from Linus - surprised how honestly he lambasts Red.

....only issue for Red now is that any chance of this blowing over are nil, now that some of the bigger youtubers are stepping in and offering opinions.
 
dmitrizigany said:
Linus Tech Tips weighs in on the subject:
https://youtu.be/nqJXu4K1igg
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His take on the subject seems pretty fair and balanced to me. If the RED CEO hadn't made all those false claims then this wouldn't be a big deal. And it's very disappointing that RED has chosen to use low-grade memory with zero-redundancy in their mags when higher quality, more reliable options have been available for many years.

Key quote from Linus: "When I read a statement like that from a company's CEO I can't help but think that RED has weighed the cost of Data Recovery against the cost of actually engineering a more robust solution and decided that it's just not worth it to create something better. They have determined that putting your footage at risk is worth it compared to the cost of engineering a RAID 1 mag solution, which would only increase the cost of each mag by about double, which we can see that they could easily absorb, while almost never requiring data recovery."
 
NorBro said:
"Originally Posted by James0b57
Because there are three rules on dvxuser:

1. Don’t talk about Red
2. Don’t talk about Red
3. Don’t talk about Red

Moving on..."


Jarred Land owns DVXuser.
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Thank you for sharing this very interesting bit of information. Now I have a new understanding of some of the comments in this thread and others.
 
He owns BMCuser too. "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

(He actually posted there once...like one time or maybe twice in 2015 or 2016, IDR. So random.)

___

You can discuss RED cameras here or there. It's not like talking about RED on the official Blackmagic forum. I doubt BM would do anything about it although I imagine they would prefer if you didn't.
 
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I found it, lol.

#38 - http://bmcuser.com/showthread.php?15621-***RED-Raven-Footage***/page4&highlight=jarred+land

One thing I always admired about the guy is how crazy he appears on the forums.

Personally I don't care if they are telling the truth or not - and many people who make a lot more money than them don't - but it's just funny to see him still posting after so many years.

Even Jim came back to post during the Hydrogen launch.

[P.S. He actually has more than 2 posts...19. And the first one was in 2012.]
 
I may be crazy but to put more fuel on the fire i'm pretty sure they just deleted the discussion on RU in the offtopic section...
 
Yup seems that way. Was only reading it 15mins ago.

Sadly Jinni seems to have taken it personal, with accusations against forum members. Probably not the wisest move on his part.

What a story!
 
Lame, but not entirely surprising. The last few posts I saw had exchanges between Phil Holland and various forum members questioning his relationship to RED and Phil referenced getting a lawyer involved. Wouldn't be surprised if he did and the lawyer just said "take the thread down" (that's a pretty classic attorney reaction).

Question is whether the Streisand effect applies to lengthy forum threads...

I do wish Jinni were a more likable antagonist in all of this, would increase the chance of positive changes being implemented. As it stands, doing anything as a result of his toxic videos is on some level "letting the terrorists win" so I understand the hesitancy...
 
Thought he just questioned Phil, that he has a pay based relationship with RED in some form. Nothing more than that? What can he sue for???
 
Mestizo Devon said:
Thought he just questioned Phil, that he has a pay based relationship with RED in some form. Nothing more than that? What can he sue for???
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Who knows, I found Phil's response strange and out of character from his other posts.

Seems like RED is trying to bury this and draw people away from it. Curious what they have up their sleeves.

It would be so easy for them to just put out a video that shows the process of making RedMags to dispell whatever Jinni as saying as being false. Yet they haven't and constantly respond with calculated and vague political responses that don't really answer the question.
 
Mestizo Devon said:
Thought he just questioned Phil, that he has a pay based relationship with RED in some form. Nothing more than that? What can he sue for???
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Unfortunately, at least as far as the US goes (not as familiar with UK legal system), you can sue or be sued for pretty much anything, provided you can find an attorney who is willing to do it (or you can DIY). Whether or not you'll win is another story, but it's not unusual for the mere threat of a lawsuit to cause people to take action, if that's what happened here.

At the end of the day all anyone has to do is find an attorney to explore the idea, and Jinni has already shown a willingness to sue. (Although he's had some counsel on his existing RED case petition to remove themselves, so he may be running out of willing attorneys!)
 
dcoughla said:
Unfortunately, at least as far as the US goes (not as familiar with UK legal system), you can sue or be sued for pretty much anything, provided you can find an attorney who is willing to do it (or you can DIY). Whether or not you'll win is another story, but it's not unusual for the mere threat of a lawsuit to cause people to take action, if that's what happened here.

At the end of the day all anyone has to do is find an attorney to explore the idea, and Jinni has already shown a willingness to sue. (Although he's had some counsel on his existing RED case petition to remove themselves, so he may be running out of willing attorneys!)
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I must have missed something.... It’s been questioned before about Phils paid/compensated relationship wit RED, why get bent out of shape now? I think everyone knows, Phil is not your average Joe when it comes to RED products and affiliation.
 
Mestizo Devon said:
I must have missed something.... It’s been questioned before about Phils paid/compensated relationship wit RED, why get bent out of shape now? I think everyone knows, Phil is not your average Joe when it comes to RED products and affiliation.
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Nothing was substantiated as far as I could see, but there was an implication/accusation that Phil had not been accurate when it came to answering these questions/disclosing relationships. The accusation was then retracted.

Legal issues aside, I can totally understand not wanting to have a space where your integrity is questioned and a narrative starts to get assembled by random people on the internet. This is a small industry where image really matters (pun intended) and that sort of thing could do damage.
 
TheTrickster said:
Can’t wait to see the media pricing LOL
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lol...the funny thing is I would actually buy all of those similarly made accessories/modules for their current prices if the body was like $3K.

Even make the camera a nice super-sampled 2K...and just add all of the other great stuff (REDCODE, 120fps, ProRes, at least 3:1 compression for the 24p and up to 8:1 for the 120p if you must, etc).

A little micro RED like BM's would be so cute!

BM Micro.jpg
 
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