C100: The difference in strategy between Canon's Cinema line and Blackmagic

[shuenwang]

I think this may be of interest, but it is only an opinion. Canon's strategy and Blackmagic's strategy are very interesting and unique. These cameras can be said to be competing for the guys going upwards from a DSLR, but they offer opposite ends of benefits. This will lead me into a clear discussion about the difference in Blackmagic and Canon, and why I think it's important to realize when you choose the camera for you.

(This goes without saying, but this opinion is for all independent or small budget productions. For all the big guys out there with larger budgets, I don't know if this stuff really matters because there are less compromises to be made)

Disruptive

Blackmagic's $3,000 price point was to lead the Cinema Camera as a DSLR video replacement, as hinted by the price. This radical new camera was designed around experimenting with something new until you can get the best possible image. It feels to me like it's made for the hackers of the cinema world who are willing to adopt new technology and break boundaries in resolution and image. The guy who wanted to sit down and play with it until he got the perfect gorgeous cinematic image. Isn't that basically what we did to our DSLRs? So the natural assumption was we would be willing to put up with this. And many do.


Incremental

Canon is much harder to understand with their unattractive pricing but their product is doing something right. To me, they are trying to address the concerns of the DSLR as an overall solution with the cheaper cameras in the Cinema line. (C300 and C500 are kind of out of budget for this market. C100 pricing is still a bit of a jump). If you picture an attribute graph, they are drawing a circular diagram where attributes are balanced. No one attribute is boundary pushing - that kind of innovation is what Blackmagic is doing. That sounds disappointing, but as John Maeda of the Rhode School of Design said, incremental innovation is just as important as disruptive innovation. This to me is what Canon seems to be attempting through perfecting 1080P image acquisition. To do this, it's of course important to create an extremely clean image. But also making it easy to use is equally as important. The well thought out industrial design, built in tools (XLRs, microphone, zebras, waveforms, controls, media) All these little details actually DO matter.

So in summary,

I see Blackmagic Cinema Camera (or Production) as a trailblazer device with risks associated with it. If you work with it, you will get results very unique and special. The Canon C100 (the only one even in proximity of price range) is the camera that just works and handles it very elegantly. Contrary to popular belief, this huge focus on usability where it allows the user to focus on content creation, not process, sounds a bit more like Apple than Blackmagic does, despite the enormous leaps in its type of innovation that the public usually recognizes.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Gary Huff]

I see Blackmagic Cinema Camera (or Production) as a trailblazer device with risks associated with it. If you work with it, you will get results very unique and special. The Canon C100 (the only one even in proximity of price range) is the camera that just works and handles it very elegantly. Contrary to popular belief, this huge focus on usability where it allows the user to focus on content creation, not process, sounds a bit more like Apple than Blackmagic does, despite the enormous leaps in its type of innovation that the public usually recognizes.

I agree with this. I find the C100 has an amazing image and is as equally pleasant to work with as my trusty old HPX170. I am constantly feeling like I am forgetting some piece of gear when I go out on shoots because of how self-contained it is. I don't need an external audio recorder or ND filters, it has them all built in. That and the built-in toolset (including the waveform monitor which I use all the time) have made it very easy to run as a single operator.

I have shot with both, and, frankly, after using the BMCC, I wasn't disappointed that I had gone ahead and pulled the trigger on the C100 instead. Quite the opposite in fact.

However, I still have a pre-order out for the new 4K Production model. But I think I would add it in addition to the C100, not replace it.

 

[indiawilds]

BMC at 2995 USD (or rather the announcement of it) was aimed at the space which the 5D Mark II had created. Since then Canon has refined the performance of the video functions of its DSLRs, however those are incremental and not the quantum jump that we had witnessed in the 5D II.

BMC didn't have a history of camera manufacturing. So the only way of getting noticed is coming out with a product that had the potential to shake up the market. At least the specs and the pricepoint got a lot of people interested. Production issues ensured that Blackmagic couldn't fulfill the promise. I had planned for adding a BMC to my kit along with the C300. However, the post by dustylense about the huge moire quickly killed my interest in it. And many more people are discovering that. Even a year after the announcement, not many BMC cameras are in the hands of people. So what could BMC do? Instead of cutting a sorry figure in the NAB this year, they sourced another sensor, close to S-35 size and 4K. They continued their shock and awe strategy of announcing it at much lower price than expected. Price warrior strategy. And they managed to create a positive buzz instead of being on the backfoot.

BMC knows that there are very few cameras with the consumers. So upsetting them by kind of "obsoleting" that camera spec wise was ok for BMC, given the small customers base who have the camera now.


Blackmagic has really done very well in catching the Top of Mind recall. In marketing, that is very important. They have played the pricing card very well, so the users are ignoring the oddball design of the camera. It is like a DSLR with rudimentary audio, fixed battery etc. The exceptional pricing has made people forget that the camera is still not freely available to public with only a few having it.

People tend to forget that RAW is not for everyone. Atleast in the present age with the present level of computing power and time required.

With the C300, one can shoot for a long time with one battery and even cut the files with a Macbook Pro and FCP X. No need for high computing power. It is good in lowlight and has all the features of a true film camera. The colours are nice. I remember Canon to have got flak once for quality problems of its cameras, when the autofocus of the 1D Mark III still camera was suspect. Canon will not announce any beta version of equipment and get egg on their face. So be ready to pay a higher price for Canon Cameras as they will work straight out of the box and will be reliable in professional production environments. Having said that, I would have loved to pay much lesser than what I paid for my C300. If filming is not a hobby, then one has to calculate the costs and benefits and invest in equipment.

I read somewhere that BMC is looking for an solutions to the moire issue and working with third party vendors for an OLPF. I hope they can solve that. The 3-4K USD category is now witnessing impulse buying behaviour as one immediately compares with Canon, Sony, RED etc and feel that 3-4K USD is nothing. In the long run BMC entering into the market is good. I hope there are other players as well, so that as consumers we benefit. People will use different cameras based on their budget and production needs. Let there be competition.

 

[dustylense]

It seems that the BMC and the C100 are the head to head camera here on DVX. 3 threads discussing the topic.

Mostly compared is the price. BMC $3k to C100 at $6.5k (now $5.5k). Fine, one camera seems a bit expensive to the other. But one camera is just that, a camera and a camera only. The BMC is a box in a box. Meaning, while you can shoot with it taking it out of the box but you have to plug it into the wall or get 45 minutes shooting. SO immediately you need to buy an external battery. I want to record something right? Add your SSD and better add a decent one. Battery and SSD you can get away with for about $600-800 and that's just for 1 each. The BMC is an 800iso cam, gonna need some ND. Lot's of HDslr guys are going to add the variable ND so add another $400-500 for a decent one (I went with a vari and individual ND's so my cost was about $700 for my ND sets). Ergonomics? BMC is not the most ergonomic as is so might as well add a cage and some handgrips. Add another $500-1000 just to start. Pretty hard to see the image on that glossy monitor so let's add an SDI EVF and say that costs about $1000. I would be nice to have some decent sound going with the camera. Add a preamp and a decent mic and lets go with another $900 (being generous on that one). Ya know, I'd like to monitor my exposure on this BMC for critical work. Let's add and external monitor with waveforms and I'll split the difference with the EVF (as some now are shipping with WF's now) and spend another $700 (but really it's about $1200).

SO where are we matching the functionality of the BMC with what is native to the C100? Well by taking the high values from above give or take I'm spending $7800 for the BMC and thats with 1 SSD and 1 battery. Is it a far better price than the C100 now? I mean that $7800 is a very conservative number. Now rig them up with all that stuff. The BMC is a camera that looks like Medusa with all the wires and boxes dangling off it. Let's keep in mind the much discussed "who is this camera for" that keeps coming up. It seems a general consensus that both cameras are targeted at people moving past the HDslr.

So one camera is now $5.5k and has just about everything to shoot right out of the box in a very well thought out package and another is about $8000 just to make it as functional as the other. "But one shoots RAW!!!!" screams somebody from the village gathering! Yep, yep it does. Might wanna add that to your cost figure because it adds up quickly. "Well I can just shoot Prores!!!!!". Yep, yes you can. But like I said before, would you buy a Corvette to drive 45mph? Some might. "But one shoots 422 10bit!!!!" Sure, and it looks great and grades well. But moire in 422 10bit is still moire.

Having shot with both cameras I can compare them in the same class but I can also attribute them quite differently. But images side by side with the functionality of the C100 in mind???? Let's just say that I spent $6.5K very well and I don't regret it for a second. (I bought just before the price drop of the C100, and yet I'm not mad at all). Now it's up to YOU to decide what you need out of a camera that corresponds to what you in fact shoot and plan on doing with the camera. But let's stop with the price tags because at the end of the day, the BMC is a more expensive camera if you are starting from zero.

 

[Policar]

BMCC is trying to be a cheaper Red.

C100 is trying to bridge the gap between dSLR and HPX/EX1-style camera.

Similar price points for a full outfit, but very different cameras.

 

[Kholi]

BMC knows that there are very few cameras with the consumers. So upsetting them by kind of "obsoleting" that camera spec wise was ok for BMC, given the small customers base who have the camera now.

Nothing is obsolete about BV1, it's a different set of specs. The 4K camera will not hit 13 stops for starters, and does not have uncompressed CInema DNG as a recording option (It will have DNG, but visually lossless), it also will not be as sensitive.

Different camera. If someone prefers the other, that's a different story, but it's far from obsolete.

People tend to forget that RAW is not for everyone. Atleast in the present age with the present level of computing power and time required.

I don't think anyone forgets that, that's why the camera shoots ProRes and DNxHD without the need for external recorders. Straight to the edit.

 

[dustylense]

I agree with Kholi here. The BV1 EF is not obsolete in the least of ways. It's just become another option. It didn't overnight sit itself to not being able to capture images. It's still a pain in the ass to get a wide angle solution though.

RAW is RAW and it is what it is. The camera does shoot a lovely Prores. So that makes the camera pretty flexible depending on budget.

Guys... There is no perfect camera. Not now and probably never will be. But we have some pretty good options in cameras today. I see people doing amazing things with the Gh2 and the OG 5dMk2 to this very day. Pick one. Or rent it!

 

[indiawilds]

Well I used the term obsolete because that is what the gear heads in the various forums feel when a new camera is launched. And also because for a majority of the users the tiny sensor in the BMC Version 1 camera is a hindrance and the S35 sensor in the 4K production camera would be much better.

If BMC can resolve the moire issue, then I will buy the BMC version 1 with the tiny sensor, as I will get more reach in wildlife. I am doing a project on leopards and even 1200mm optical focal length is short in certain situations. In those situations the BMC version 1 with its 2.5 or so crop factor will be beneficial. I am heavily invested in Canon and the BMC version 1 would have been just for speciality purpose.

I just returned from the incredibly dusty environments of Assam, India. I was shooting in the city as well as in tea estates and in Kaziranga National Park. While interviewing a poor tea plucker lady, I noticed that she was wearing a very fine patterned sari. The BMC cannot handle that scene. I guess, the poor woman won't even have another set of clothes. When I asked her what do you do when you see a leopard in the tea estate. She smiled and said that she will dump the basket used for collecting tea leaves and run. Her smile was precious. I was thinking that my MKH 416 microphone was more than the salary she will get in 3 years. Still the lady has got a smile in her face. And here we are getting angry over features in a camera or the lack of it. Wondering if half of the time we spend in documenting the un-alloyed joy of such people, perhaps we will be happy as well. Hmmm.... sorry for digressing.

 

[8string]

Amen to that. Just takeall our gear, and go shoot.we all have enough to make significantly good video, just show me some scripts and actors and stop whining about gear!

 

[dcloud]

i dont think the moire is that big an issue.
im more bothered by the quirks like ergonomics and built in nd filter.
moire exists, just try to avoid it.

c100 is a great camera. especially now with the rebate and ninja 2 price drop.