The D word

Chris Santucci

Chris Santucci

Veteran
I've been tracking the progress of a low budget Indie shot near where I live and recently did a title search which yielded (on the first page of results) a link to a popular file sharing torrent site which showed that the film was downloaded over 42,000 times and currently had over 4,500 seeders. All this after having been added only 2 days ago.

The film actually hasn't even been officially released yet (in the U.S.) having only screened in a handful of festivals. It's currently scheduled for a January 6th DVD release according to amazon.com.

What I'm wondering is, as a producer of mostly ultra low budget Indie films (with 3 currently in post), how do you combat this kind of thing? I'm sure for a title like The Dark Night, downloads are a drop in the bucket compared to overall sales, but for a film that probably would only be (possibly self) distributed on DVD, especially when looking at the numbers above, it seems like a significant loss of potential income is inevitable which then begs the question of low budget filmmakers everywhere:

Why bother?

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The real question is, how should you compensate the torrent provider for all of that free publicity?
 
I may be naive, but I would go about this diplomatically. Start with sending emails to moderators of those torrent sites explaining exactly what you just said: that as an independent film the success of your work depends on DVD sales and that having that torrent on there hurts your bottom line. Ask that the torrent be removed, but do so nicely. Also post on the torrent itself with the same thing asking people not to download it and provide a link for them to obtain it legally.

Believe it or not the vast majority of downloaders are honest; they may have convinced themselves that it's ok to download a major release, but when they hear firsthand from the filmmakers, it will probably give them pause.
 
The problem is that there are no illegitimate torrent providers in the US anymore -- most are in countries with more liberal copyright laws and won't heed any notices or warnings. Worse, they'll openly mock you.

Most people who download films wouldn't have paid to watch them anyway, so it doesn't really take anything from the bottom-line. However it is an excellent way of spreading word-of-mouth for the film (which is why I suspect that most of these pre-release torrents are done by the distributors themselves for publicity.)
 
pmark23 said:
The problem is that there are no illegitimate torrent providers in the US anymore -- most are in countries with more liberal copyright laws and won't heed any notices or warnings. Worse, they'll openly mock you.

Most people who download films wouldn't have paid to watch them anyway, so it doesn't really take anything from the bottom-line. However it is an excellent way of spreading word-of-mouth for the film (which is why I suspect that most of these pre-release torrents are done by the distributors themselves for publicity.)
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A note...I clicked on _mock you_ and got a virus alert !!!
Take care...
 
pmark23 said:
The problem is that there are no illegitimate torrent providers in the US anymore -- most are in countries with more liberal copyright laws and won't heed any notices or warnings.
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Of course. But I'm not really talking about legalities as much as WTF to do when you produce a low budget film that already has a very limited chance of making money (back) which then has its sales/rental potential affected by downloads. I've even seen very bad films available as torrents.

pmark23 said:
Most people who download films wouldn't have paid to watch them anyway, so it doesn't really take anything from the bottom-line.
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I'd have to think about that one. You're saying people who download films only watch movies that they can download?

pmark23 said:
However it is an excellent way of spreading word-of-mouth for the film (which is why I suspect that most of these pre-release torrents are done by the distributors themselves for publicity.)
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What "word of mouth" is there? "Hey go to thepiratebay and download this really cool film I just downloaded"(?) In the realm of tech savy file sharing downloaders, it's ALL about piracy. Some of the ripper/uploaders are minor celebrities based on their abilities to provide high quality versions of films.

I'm not sure how a pre-release torrent would help retail sales or rentals of a film especially when you need to sell maybe 5,000 to make a little profit. If a low budget Indie gets some attention at festivals and some smarty-pants manages to get a hold of a screener and ups it for the torrent crowd, then what?

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Huy Vu said:
I may be naive, but I would go about this diplomatically. Start with sending emails to moderators of those torrent sites explaining exactly what you just said: that as an independent film the success of your work depends on DVD sales and that having that torrent on there hurts your bottom line. Ask that the torrent be removed, but do so nicely.
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I wouldn't expect much from the guys who run the torrent sites but I could see making an appeal to the rippers themselves and to the sharing community. I think people have gotten so used to downloading that they don't even consider NOT doing it.

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you can't stop it. i would begin thinking about what value you can attach to something that is given away for "free". for example, if you could capture the metadata of the people downloading the torrent, you could bring this data to advertisers, sponsors and investors.
 
Chris,

I'd be pissed but if there is no word of mouth and they are getting those kind of download numbers now (and yes, I know they are stealing) I think it will be a MAJOR success!

Those are not bad problems to have 2 day's into it.

If I were them I'd focus my energy on marketing and dist. and not trying to stop somthing they cant.

You know you have a crappy movie when no one wants to download it.
 
There is not much you can do.
There is no such thing as copyright or copy protection.
It´s only an idea - they made it up like Humpty Dumpty or the 3 little pigs.

In the real world everything that can be copyed will be copyed and everything can by copyed. Period.
Sueing somebody because of it gives you only a bad image. Forget it.


I would be more than happy if poeple would share my last Timefest entry arround.
No one would pay me a ct for it anyway.
That´s absolute free advertising.
All that porn guys have to pay to get on the torrent sides.
For you it`s free.


But look at it from an other point.

1. Most poeple that copy things would not have spend money on it anyway - so you lost nothing here. (or do you think the average Joe Shmock that buys a $4 "Rolex" out of a trunk at a dark parking lot, would have otherwise bought a $40000 watch?)

2. Think of it as a free multiplicator of your work. You can reach millions of poeple that get aware of you - and you would never have reached so much without copying.

3. I know lot´s of guys that - chough chough - "try" out music and software that way, but ending up buying it, if they realy like it . That´s more paying customers in the end.

At so many downloads and god knows how many copys of it, chances are that someone with a bidget likes your work and hires you.

Just make sure you got your name, website and company big enough on it.

Frank
 
Postmaster said:
...
I would be more than happy if poeple would share my last Timefest entry arround.
No one would pay me a ct for it anyway.
That´s absolute free advertising.
...
Just make sure you got your name, website and company big enough on it.

Frank
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If your work is a labour of love and you're in the business purely for ego satisfaction, perhaps. But if you need to earn your daily living from it - your sole source of income is the revenue its sales generate for you and if people viewing it don't pay you for the privilege you literally don't have money for a home or food, you might feel a bit differently. You sound like the product itself is at best a glorified resume and your earn your living being paid a wage by clients - if you're a camera operator that might be true. But if you're a filmmaker, nobody pays you a salary and if you're not paid by the people who view your film, you don't eat.
 
I enjoy free publicity.
I could sick my lawyer on many for pirating my copyrighted material but it'd just pull it offline, not put revenue in my pocket... as none was made... not enough to start devying anyway.
If you look at it as theft, it'll make you mad. Look at it as publicity you didn't buy and you are in the green with these parasites.
 
Steve House said:
If your work is a labour of love and you're in the business purely for ego satisfaction, perhaps. But if you need to earn your daily living from it - your sole source of income is the revenue its sales generate for you and if people viewing it don't pay you for the privilege you literally don't have money for a home or food, you might feel a bit differently. You sound like the product itself is at best a glorified resume and your earn your living being paid a wage by clients - if you're a camera operator that might be true. But if you're a filmmaker, nobody pays you a salary and if you're not paid by the people who view your film, you don't eat.
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This is true on one hand, on the other hand it is much overrated.

When I was a kid we recorded music from the radio to tapes, copyed them a dozend times and shared them among friends. As far as I know, the invention of the tape recorder did not make the music industry go belly up.

The same regards to movies and the invention of VHS recorders.

There is no way to stop poeple sharing your work if they like what they see (or hear).

So if you are not able to stop that, you have to find a way to profit from it.

And that way is:

Tadaaa!

Have your name and web site as big as possible on it. :)

By the way Chris, how did your film get into the wilderness anyway if it is not relased yet?

Frank
 
Chris Santucci said:
I wouldn't expect much from the guys who run the torrent sites but I could see making an appeal to the rippers themselves and to the sharing community. I think people have gotten so used to downloading that they don't even consider NOT doing it.

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Yes! Legally there may be no solution, but we're appealing to them as fellow human beings instead of faceless corporations. I'm willing to bet that most downloaders and torrent providers have convinced themselves that they're waging a heroic struggle against "The Man." When they see that "The Man" are just small time filmmakers trying to get by, that'll probably take the sail out of their argument.
 
It's as easy as contacting these companies and mentioning the word lawyer if it's buggin ya.
If it's pulling from your business, they'll pay ya all 20 bucks in their LLC account. lol
Sometimes compliments wear strange disguises.
 
The Pirate Bay has a place for notes under each torrent download page. If you take a look at the notes, you'll often see something like "Wow, this is great. I'm definitely going to get the DVD!" or "Hey, this is playing this weekend at the local festival. I'm going to check it out!".

I think that bit-torrent releases should be a part of any film marketing plan. Face it, the torrents are going to get out there anyway -- better to put out one of your own (with proper quality control and notices that point to a website at the beginning) than roll the dice with what someone grabs from a screening or theatre.

The one hurdle with this is that it's hard to collect statistics on torrents because not all sites release their tracker data. Once you have statistics, then you can calculate the conversion rate. Once you know that (for example) statistically 1% of downloaders buy the DVD, and you make $10 from each DVD sold, then you'll need 50,000 downloads to make up your $50,000 budget before you break-even.

Really though, nobody knows what's going to happen. All you can do is keep an open mind and embrace whatever change takes place.
 
pmark23 said:
I think that bit-torrent releases should be a part of any film marketing plan. Face it, the torrents are going to get out there anyway -- better to put out one of your own (with proper quality control and notices that point to a website at the beginning) than roll the dice with what someone grabs from a screening or theatre.
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I'm starting to think that might not be a bad idea.

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Chris Santucci said:
The film actually hasn't even been officially released yet (in the U.S.) having only screened in a handful of festivals. It's currently scheduled for a January 6th DVD release according to amazon.com.

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If it hasn't been released, who put it on the internet? Sounds like you need to talk to the people at the festivals.
 
Hxd Ped said:
If it hasn't been released, who put it on the internet? Sounds like you need to talk to the people at the festivals.
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I wasn't referring to a film of mine. Of course it could have been released in Europe, I'm not sure, or someone got their hands on a screener and uploaded a rip. Or certainly it could have been upped by the filmmakers themselves...

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