Teaser for "Fear Lives Here" shot on Canon 5D

[Kholi]

You could make that same point about any good film... The shooting can remind you of another film, but the content is different. I know what your saying, which is why I think this film is only following the same formula (just from the trailer, I have no idea what the movie is about but I'd like to know). As far as lifting shots... How many different ways can you place your subject in a frame without having someone tell you it's been done?

He's saying that it looks like they literally ripped exact compositions, beats, cuts etc from very well known franchises. Not so much that the shooting looks the same, but it's an exact replica/copy of actual existing products.

I.E Ghost snatches character out of a medium shot after tense build.

There are a lot of different ways to play the material. Only limited by imagination. The difference is in execution and I think that he's saying it's executed in a way that's been done fifty five times before.

Regardless, getting a feature made is awesome. Not my kind of material, lost my interest in cliche horror a while ago, but can always commend on taking a step forward.

 

[Chris Adler]

That is indeed what I was saying. You said it better than I.

 

[HDkilledFILM.]

I'm aware (again) of what he's saying, but you could make that same argument about allot of films in any genre'.

If it reminds you of the grudge or whatever ghost film it reminds you of unless they stole the entire film shot for shot it's a little insulting (and not very constructive to say the least) to say that the film maker "Lifted" the shots.

 

[Kholi]

I'm aware (again) of what he's saying, but you could make that same argument about allot of films in any genre'.

If it reminds you of the grudge or whatever ghost film it reminds you of unless they stole the entire film shot for shot it's a little insulting (and not very constructive to say the least) to say that the film maker "Lifted" the shots.

Well, if I see a specific shot that's executed like the Grudge, I or any audience member, it's going to be "they stole that from this movie!"

It's not about the genre, it's literally about the presentation and execution. If it works, it works. I understood immediately where he was coming from as a fellow filmmaker and audience member.

I could have been watching scenes from JEEPERS CREEPERS if I didn't know that I was looking at this specific title. But, you do as you can with what you have, and again, I am an advocate of that.

 

[stip]

So you shot the whole movie in 11 days? That's pretty fast!
Did you have several Canon's or just one?

 

[moviemaykr]

Yeah we had about 4 Canon 5Ds but used mostly 2 cameras and 3 on the stunt days since you cant do a ton of takes with stunts. As for the conversation about it looking like other horror film, Well of course it does! As said n the original post Im not trying to be a genius horror film maker. I will leave that to the Wes Cravens and Clive Barkers of that genre.

As HdKilledFilm knows, (because he has made indie feature films from start to finish and had them distributed) when you dont have millions of dollars of budget then you need to make a film within your means and at the same time keeping in mind what distributors would want to buy not only domestic but worldwide.
In my day job I do interviews every week with studio execs, actors, directors and producers and they all say about the same thing when it comes to breaking into film making. Make the best movie you can to get you to your next movie with a bigger budget and so on and so forth.
Hopefully your movies get better as you can afford or choose to work with better people in the film making biz.
In the end almost all horror films are the same and people get killed the same, zombies eat people, vampires suck blood, and yada yada, but teenagers and college kids will always go see them and they dont care what its shot on, how people are killed and so on and so forth. They want to hang out at the theater with their friends or girlfriend and yell and scream at the movie screen.
That's all and nothing more and in the end you should never read to deep into how any horror film is made. How many times does the girl always trip while running, or drop keys to get in a car or door, or characters going out in the night defenseless when they hear a sound.
You know why films keep doing this, because its a formula that always works! Its the one genre that gives young film makers a shot to make their mark without having to wait until sell your script or have to acquire a huge budget.
It doesnt matter if someone "steals a shot from another movie" what matters is how all the shots are used to fit the story. Once again 90% of the audience wont care or lose sleep if a shot looks like something they saw in another movie. The other 10% can be critics and that's their right to be as long as the pay the price of admission. Either way its a win for the studio and film maker.
We are cinematographers and film makers on this site and its ok to be passionate or even critical on here, even if that person themselves haven't or will never get to make a feature film that gets accepted to festivals and then bought for distribution.
The more you try to make your films and whatnot the more you will realize at the end of the day ITS a business, you have to make something that hopefully a mass of people will go see and until your playin with million dollar budgets your options and time to make a feature, are very limited.

 

[Kholi]

Please, do not consider any of my post a detractor to your accomplishment: making a feature film is time consuming and requires great effort. A lot of people talk about it, and just talk talk talk. Then, there are some people do it and make terrible features, some do it and make great ones. But, at least they did it.

Yeah we had about 4 Canon 5Ds but used mostly 2 cameras and 3 on the stunt days since you cant do a ton of takes with stunts. As for the conversation about it looking like other horror film, Well of course it does! As said n the original post Im not trying to be a genius horror film maker. I will leave that to the Wes Cravens and Clive Barkers of that genre.

As HdKilledFilm knows, (because he has made indie feature films from start to finish and had them distributed) when you dont have millions of dollars of budget then you need to make a film within your means and at the same time keeping in mind what distributors would want to buy not only domestic but worldwide.

In absolutes. I'll be right there with you guys. For now, I sit with a number of people who have theatrical franchises that most people on these boards probably have a dvd copy of; I know exactly what you're saying.

In my day job I do interviews every week with studio execs, actors, directors and producers and they all say about the same thing when it comes to breaking into film making. Make the best movie you can to get you to your next movie with a bigger budget and so on and so forth.

Hopefully your movies get better as you can afford or choose to work with better people in the film making biz.

Couldn't be more true. The enemy of good is perfect. Do something, first, do better second.

In the end almost all horror films are the same and people get killed the same, zombies eat people, vampires suck blood, and yada yada, but teenagers and college kids will always go see them and they dont care what its shot on, how people are killed and so on and so forth.

I have to say, though, that this line of thinking is swiftly coming to an end. The numbers speak for themselves, in general. Horror movies are tanking and people are tired of being forcefed the same crap.

The studio execs, etc--self admittedly, so--are still tuned into an old model that you can crap on someone's plate and if there's nothing else to eat, they will eat it. Word of mouth says crap tastes bad, dont' do it.

People listen. Social Networks are killing the old model, thus killing the simplicity that was dropping Horror Movies on a mass audience and hoping they'll get seen. If there was any reason to hire named talent, Horror is it.

The Crazies was a great example of a recent Horror movie that didn't abide by a lot of these cliche conventions. It was helmed for twenty-million and rolled in forty-million. I think it claimed what it was worth.

That's all and nothing more and in the end you should never read to deep into how any horror film is made. How many times does the girl always trip while running, or drop keys to get in a car or door, or characters going out in the night defenseless when they hear a sound.

I think these are old Horror Movie models, and it's probably why only fourth and fifth rate distributors want to pick up horror movies. Lionsgate still does, even they are (as I've been personally told) not very interested in typical Zombie and HOrror anymore.

THey've got their eyes on Sci-Fi, if anyone's interested.

Its the one genre that gives young film makers a shot to make their mark without having to wait until sell your script or have to acquire a huge budget.

It's a genre that you can walk with crutches on, so one that is easier to play in. I don't think that horror will be any way to make a serious mark, anymore. We may recite camcorder-style movies of recent success, and my personal favorite THE SIGNAL, of course. As far as making marks?

Who is Neil Blomkamp?

Who are David Bruckner and Dan Bush?

It doesnt matter if someone "steals a shot from another movie" what matters is how all the shots are used to fit the story. Once again 90% of the audience wont care or lose sleep if a shot looks like something they saw in another movie. The other 10% can be critics and that's their right to be as long as the pay the price of admission.

I think audiences of yore didn't care. We're all becoming wiser, not just filmmakers but audience plenty. The mystery veil of filmmaking is being torn down and now people "get it". Rightfully so.

How long can you keep a magic trick magic before someone unveils the science of it?

Every audience member is a critic, and now they're the most important critics because it only takes one to post on FACEBOOK about how a feature film is a direct copy of another, is terrible, has bad acting or just isn't good for that person's one-thousand friend network to be reached. And then their friends network, so on and so forth.

I think for cheap shots, sure, it's fine. Longevity? Well, I suppose we'll see.

We are cinematographers and film makers on this site and its ok to be passionate or even critical on here, even if that person themselves haven't or will never get to make a feature film that gets accepted to festivals and then bought for distribution.

One thing I personally do believe is that we, as filmmakers, can be overtly critical. In the same instance, without peers to push you to be great, longevity may not be an end result for a lot of us.

I'm in the process of casting a feature I've been writing for two years. A script that's been in the hands of some pretty nice houses, producer, etc. Without that feedback, as filmmakers they are, it wouldn't be where it is now. I can confidently go into this knowing that my chances of establishing longevity here, and as you know sustaining a lifestyle in Los Angeles is very hard, and being able to look at my product and go "That was a great first step."

That is what we all should strive for, or maybe not.

The more you try to make your films and whatnot the more you will realize at the end of the day ITS a business, you have to make something that hopefully a mass of people will go see and until your playin with million dollar budgets your options and time to make a feature, are very limited.

It is a business. Absolutely. Anyone who thinks that it is not a business first is in for a rude awakening. However, business practices change, and as technology mutates at an accelerated rate, then business practices follow suit.

My current thinking? We talk about Lotto Movies like Blair Witch, El Mariachi, etc. People say that they don't come around for say ten years or so?

The Signal (60K -> 1.5 Million), Paranormal Activity (15, 000 > 300,000 > Millions) and, now. MONSTERS (2010) ( 15K> Gawd knows how much).

These have shown up in 5, 3, and 1 year increments. I expect a flood of great material from unknowns, cookie cutter and not so, to begin raining in. The studios will turn into distro connections and independent filmmaking will become the norm.

The director of the last one is already being called the next Neil Blomkamp. From the trailer, it looks like he deserves it.

Please, do not consider any of my post a detractor to your accomplishment: making a feature film is time consuming and requires great effort. A lot of people talk about it, and just talk talk talk. Then, there are some people do it and make terrible features, some do it and make great ones. But, at least they did it.

I can't wait to join you. At this point, I'm just about out of things to keep me calm enough to go on with my day during the wait to begin principal photography.

Major good luck on distribution.

 

[Kholi]

Addendum: I'm glad this discussion is not about gear. =]

 

[HDkilledFILM.]

haha, Kholi, I both look forward to and dread your posts. In many ways we agree, in a few we do not. But having said that I couldn't agree with you more about this being a business. Put butts in seats and that's what really matters (to the people who give you the money at least) if your not making films to get people to watch them, if your just shooting things for yourself... I don't know. As far as my being anyone in this industry, I'm just another guy trying to make movies every day. I know who I know and I'm not anyone but me. It's funny, Kholi but in many ways you allways write things that make me think hard about my own stance on things. keep it up.

Cheers bro!

 

[Kholi]

haha, Kholi, I both look forward to and dread your posts. In many ways we agree, in a few we do not. But having said that I couldn't agree with you more about this being a business. Put butts in seats and that's what really matters (to the people who give you the money at least) if your not making films to get people to watch them, if your just shooting things for yourself... I don't know. As far as my being anyone in this industry, I'm just another guy trying to make movies every day. I know who I know and I'm not anyone but me. It's funny, Kholi but in many ways you allways write things that make me think hard about my own stance on things. keep it up.

Cheers bro!

I never aim to discourage. To be honest, I just want to watch great movies, and if I can help make that happen then I should? Then again, I stopped posting so much because, while I've done a fair amount of work, I have no feature titles distributed to solidify my stance on topics; I should have that, if I want to speak with guys that have distributed.

That is yet another motivator to get this feature shot, done, and delivered.

You should definitely make movies for people to watch. It will be better if you can get people to pay ten dollars or more to view them (at least initially, if not consecutively-- see Kholi on Christopher Nolan's INCEPTION) so that you can have your growing audience and fan club pay for your next large adventure.

 

[Kholi]

By the by, my supporting example for becoming an auteur of your favorite genre, or all genre's: http://www.nolanfans.com/

You know you're a distinct and successful filmmaker when you have a website built by fans, managed by fans. These people are audience members, the ones that pay for the movies that we want to make.

 

[moviemaykr]

Kholi you make really good points and I agree with some and others we will see what happens as the film industry moves more into digital the world. I have to say your thoughts on kids getting wiser or wanting better, actually I think they are getting more stupid and immature and just want stuff like eye candy to fill their brains. Twilight series and those alike with cute vampires and werewolves and sub par acting and cheesy stories are being eaten up by studios faster than fast food! LOL
To date those type films are the sole reason some films like "Little Miss Sunshine" are able to get made because the parent company has a huge franchise film that helps pay the bills and fill the coffers. Fox helps fund Fox Seachlight and so on, its like an internal bank.
From the reaserch I did before filming my movie, I highly doubt that horror films are losing money or fallin out of favor. It is the one genre where it doesn't need to be a great or even good script and you could watch it if it was on late at night on TV. It is universally understood which makes it easy to distribute worldwide. Russia is booming in distribution and one of the best selling generes is horror.
Best example is a movie called "Frozen" done by Adam Green, it was absolutely horrible and his previous film "Hatchet" was worse than Horrible! To date "Frozen" has made $2.6 million dollars for Anchor Bay Films. Im sure they bought it for much less and only released it to a handful of theaters. Even though his films are so bad he is getting a chance to direct "Hatchet 2" so he proves that kids will keep coming and studios will invest even if its crap.

I am glad you are easy to talk to and dont get offended because as you said there are to many critics on here that never try to actually make a film. You make good points which make reading message boards more enjoyable to read. As for your script Kholi don't wait to long or hope a friend or studio will give you a budget you need to make an amazing movie you think might be your best. Just get out there ad make it any way you can and get your career moving one step closer to where you want to be.
Any young film makers first feature will almost never be their best work but it will put you ahead of the rat race!
People were telling me to wait and buy an airplane and I said screw that I bought the airport!

 

[Kholi]

Kholi you make really good points and I agree with some and others we will see what happens as the film industry moves more into digital the world. I have to say your thoughts on kids getting wiser or wanting better, actually I think they are getting more stupid and immature and just want stuff like eye candy to fill their brains. Twilight series and those alike with cute vampires and werewolves and sub par acting and cheesy stories are being eaten up by studios faster than fast food! LOL

That's a very good point you make. However, Twilight had a following before hand and definitely retains it through literature. I remember Twilight books popping up before I even got into filmmaking.

Today, I may still wonder what the draw is mentally, but I can see why the masses eat it up. Again, though, it's not horror, it's a huge (very feminine) love story.

You aren't wrong about people eating it up, though. I wouldn't be one to hate on the franchise and would love to have an income generator like that under my shingle!

To date those type films are the sole reason some films like "Little Miss Sunshine" are able to get made because the parent company has a huge franchise film that helps pay the bills and fill the coffers. Fox helps fund Fox Seachlight and so on, its like an internal bank.

A resounding hell yes.

From the reaserch I did before filming my movie, I highly doubt that horror films are losing money or fallin out of favor. It is the one genre where it doesn't need to be a great or even good script and you could watch it if it was on late at night on TV. It is universally understood which makes it easy to distribute worldwide. Russia is booming in distribution and one of the best selling generes is horror.

Okay, this is fairly interesting. During my own distro research, I've fond the opposite and I think below is why...

Best example is a movie called "Frozen" done by Adam Green, it was absolutely horrible and his previous film "Hatchet" was worse than Horrible! To date "Frozen" has made $2.6 million dollars for Anchor Bay Films.

Two and a half million dollars isn't a lot of money in our industry. It gets spent in a day or two on larger films that make fifty to sixty times that amount in an opening weekend. So, perhaps what it boils down to may be this:

Horror films can be successful on a small scale, and are still being distributed in domestic and foreign territories en masse. However, top tier to third level distributors are not seeking zombies and horror movies at this point in time.

I think that makes sense for both of our conclusions.

By the way, two and a half million dollars would be an amazing profit if the filmmakers kept and distributed their films themselves. I've been talking with some guys I just met who've distributed a number of well known Sundance hits, they're moving into self distribution theatrical methods that sound incredibly tasty!

Im sure they bought it for much less and only released it to a handful of theaters. Even though his films are so bad he is getting a chance to direct "Hatchet 2" so he proves that kids will keep coming and studios will invest even if its crap.

Yes, I have to agree. I don't see them vanishing any time soon and I hope that I didn't come off as naively suggesting this to be true! I think, however, they're going to take a back seat for a long while, Science Fiction, smart action and thriller, and fantasy coming to the forefront.

We will always see crap, though. Good cannot be good without bad! And, well, sometimes bad movie is just what the doctor ordered after a night out with a bottle of Don Julio and Del Taco! My two favorite Mexican Friends.

I am glad you are easy to talk to and dont get offended because as you said there are to many critics on here that never try to actually make a film.

Los Angeles ground my thin skin away and left only rubber. LoL. And, this industry is so small, it's best to just acknowledge other opinions and if you like your own better, continue forward! It's a lesson that takes a long time to learn.

You make good points which make reading message boards more enjoyable to read. As for your script Kholi don't wait to long or hope a friend or studio will give you a budget you need to make an amazing movie you think might be your best. Just get out there ad make it any way you can and get your career moving one step closer to where you want to be.

ANd, here is the second lesson that "we've" learned as a group. It's not gonna fall in your lap. Do it now, or regret it later. I'm going to shoot on a shoestring budget and it'll work out exactly how it's supposed to, if that's good or bad it doesn't matter.

It just needs to happen NOW, not LATER. And, I'm not waiting on anyone's money to do it.

Any young film makers first feature will almost never be their best work but it will put you ahead of the rat race!
People were telling me to wait and buy an airplane and I said screw that I bought the airport!

Rat Race is exactly what this place is. I've always said I'll shoot three movies then bail out! I'll see you on the surface. LoL.