Tascam DR-60D : How Many Settings Is Enough? :-)

GaryNattrass said:
Sorry but in these days noise should not really be a factor and if it is you are using the wrong mic's with your device or putting them in the wrong place for your application.
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I'm sure that's a valid point in many situations, but what about field recording? I'm sometimes trying to catch distant sources and cranking the gain a bit, and that's where the noise really has an impact. Is there a better way to do this?

GaryNattrass said:
Also note that on a lot of these budget devices and a lot of the camera's it is actually the headphone amp that is creating the most noise in the monitoring chain
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But in this case it was the final recording where I was noticing the noise, as I was editing the project. I actually got the Roland and compared it side-by-side with the Zoom, using the same mic (NTG-2, I think), and there was a huge difference in the recordings. It could have been an issue with matching the NTG-2 with the Zoom, I guess, but that really should not have been a problem.

This survey bears out my experience:

http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
 
AtticusLake said:
I'm sure that's a valid point in many situations, but what about field recording? I'm sometimes trying to catch distant sources and cranking the gain a bit, and that's where the noise really has an impact. Is there a better way to do this?
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Get closer. That may sound like a flippant response, but you can't expect premium performance from mass-market, low-end gear. The Avisoft data would appear to support that axiom, but some of their test methodology is unconventional and somewhat suspecct.
 
If a small (maybe even one-man-band) company like JuicedLink is absolutely able to build a super low noise preamp, Tascam should be able to be in the same league (S/N wise), or they would do something very wrong.
 
This thing looks cool...I'm wondering what the advantage might be to someone that already has a DR100MKII.
 
AtticusLake said:
No-one seems to be talking about noise...?
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It all depends on the pre-amps they build into this unit. I expect it will be as good as their DR-40 / DR-100 recorders.

Using a MIC input the Tascam DR-40 recorder has a noise-floor of -79 dB RMS at it's lowest recording level, and the DR-100 Mk2 recorder has a noise-floor of -83 dB RMS at it's lowest recording level. ( for LINE inputs the noise-floor doesn't really change much )
 
GaryNattrass said:
Sorry but in these days noise should not really be a factor and if it is you are using the wrong mic's with your device or putting them in the wrong place for your application.
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Some of the low cost recorders are quite noisy at their maximum MIC gain setting. Here is the noise-floor I've measured with different recorders set to their highest MIC gain setting...

Olympus LS-7 : -55 dB RMS

Olympus LS-11 : -72 dB RMS

Sony PCM-M10 : -49 dB RMS

Tascam DR-40 : -50 dB RMS

Tascam DR-100 Mk2 : -53 dB RMS

ZOOM H1 : -50 dB RMS

ZOOM H4n : -60 dB RMS


...A noise-floor louder than -60 dB RMS is audible as faint hiss under normal listening conditions. If you can stay away from their highest gain setting most of these recorders can be quite good.
 
Richard Crowley said:
Get closer. That may sound like a flippant response, but you can't expect premium performance from mass-market, low-end gear.
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Sure, I'll always get as close as I can... but the point is I'm seeing a big difference in the noise from popular, low-cost recorders, and I'm just wondering where on that scale the DR-60D will be.

Richard Crowley said:
The Avisoft data would appear to support that axiom, but some of their test methodology is unconventional and somewhat suspecct.
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Hmm, thanks, OK. Obviously more info is better, but there doesn't seem to be a heck of a lot on this. I guess for most people, you get close to the talent and it's not an issue. But my talent may be 60' up a redwood, so it's not too easy...
 
AtticusLake said:
... But my talent may be 60' up a redwood, so it's not too easy...
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Nature Recording is a sub-specialty with different requirements. Which is why there are specialty online forums for nature recordists.

For example: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists

I don't hang out there much, but I preceive that discussion of low self-noise mics and preamps, and sensitive mics is a frequent thing over there.

And here is a society with an upcoming field demonstration event up in London next month
http://www.wildlife-sound.org/

It has been my observations that the nature/wildlife recording people know the what the most sensitive and quietest gear is.
 
MattRobertson said:
Wonder how this would compare to my fostex dc-r302 that I currently use.
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There really isn't any reason to believe the mic pres on the DR-60D would be any better than the DR-100mkII, and I found those definitely a step down from the dc-r302. The price is right though.
 
Looks like a nice device, but for the time being I think I'll stick with my DR-40. It's served me well so far.

I'm building my HD DSLR gear up over this year, so down the line something like this might be a good little tool to grab.
 
I have a mixpre-d, and this looks, at first glance, like an improvement, given built in recorder. One less thing to provide batteries to.
 
AtticusLake said:
No-one seems to be talking about noise...? I got a Zoom H4n and was very disappointed in the amount of noise, even to my cloth ears. Much happier with a Roland R-26. I agree this new Tascam device looks very cool, but I'll wait to see some (independent) noise figures.
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In the "you get what you pay for" scenario, I would suspect about the same as the DR40/100. It certainly will not replace high quality external preamps and a skilled operator.
 
I have the Tascam DR-100mkII and a JuicedLink RM333. Had this product came out earlier, I would have saved myself a few hundred bucks. In fact, I don't even use the DR-100mkII anymore since I have the RM333.
 
8string said:
I have a mixpre-d, and this looks, at first glance, like an improvement, given built in recorder. One less thing to provide batteries to.
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Kind of apples and oranges since the MixPre is a mic pre with some mixer like functions and not a recorder. I would lay odds the MixPre's mic pres are a couple of steps above, but other than that you can't really compare the two since they are designed to fill two separate functions.

I can see this being a really nice addition to an FX recordists kit. Small multiple channels at least decent quality and a lot of flexibility. I don't think ergonomically it would be any recordists first choice but as a second recorder it has a lot going for it.
 
I agree this will be a great add on to my kit even though I have external recorders and several mixers, it will allow me to easily add further tracks to my camera but will also allow me to do a mix and ambience recording off camera if needed for very little $$$£££
 
That's a nice writeup, Sam. However, it'll all depend on quality of sound. If it has poor s/n, then what is the point of buying this?
 
enraginangel said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH6hAsshEuM&feature=player_embedded

Robert from JuicedLink responds to the Tascam 60D questions people are having.

Personally, I think the Riggy series of products need a slight price adjustment to compete.
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In my opinion, I think the analogy Robert gives in the video is not quite accurate. I think the JuicedLink box is like an apple and the Tascam unit is like a fruit bowl. The fruit bowl has an apple, but the question is, do you really want a whole fruit bowl. The fruit bowl will bigger, heavier, and consume more power.

As far as front-end noise, the Tascam website makes strong claims for their specs, namely, EIN = -120 dBu, which is less than 1 uV RMS. A healthy condenser mic signal is around 10 mV, which is a good 80 dB of signal-to-noise. Now, they don't describe their test setup as it may be the best case scenario, but the fact they're somewhat transparant about their specs strongly suggests it's better than a typical handheld unit. The Sound Devices Mixpre-D specs -126 dBu for the their EIN.

I like JuicedLink and I own one of their boxes. They're genuine and good engineers. However, the Tascam box is very compelling for it's price and I agree that JuicedLink will have to price their stuff more competitively to compete. Consumer electronics is a highly competitive market, but they've fulfilled a niche that has been somewhat sheltered from that in the past.
 
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