Tascam DR-100 & lavalier microphone

R

richpedd

New member
I recently bought a Tascam DR-100. Great little unit. Works wonderfully with my XLR microphones and line input. However, I'm trying to get my lavalier mic to work with it.

I have the lavalier plugged into a female-to-female 3.5mm coupler, and a male 3.5mm to male XLR cable plugged into the coupler. Idea is to get the lav to convert to male XLR to plug into female XLR mic input on DR-100.

So needless to say, I'm not getting ANY sound. Anybody have any ideas? Looking forward to hearing your input. Thanks!

IMG-20120125-00032.jpg
 
the 3.5mm plug in the DR-100 is a line in, which will not have enough gain to accomodate lavs.

I'm working on a small box which will power my lavs when using the DR-100, using the XLR/quarter inch connectors on the recorder. I'm using Oscar Soundtech lavs which are positive bias, but think I'll put a switch on the box which will allow either positive or negative bias. I'll let you know when I have it working.
 
The lav microphone with 3.5mm mini-phone plug requires a low "plug-in power" voltage to operate. Something around 3~5 volts.
If you have the phantom power turned on for the XLR mic inputs, your DR-100 was putting out 48V.
If the adapter(s) were wired "properly" then you probably fried your microphone.
If they were wired improperly, it may have spared your lav, but either way you won't hear anything.

The unbalanced, low voltage output of that lav and the balanced, high-voltage XLR inputs are NOT compatible and cannot be interconnected with a simple adapter.

Some small portable digital recorders have 3.5mm mic input jacks to accommodate that kind of microphone. But, alas, the DR-100 is not one of them.

As gpforet mentioned, there are ways of adapting the signal and power or separately powering the microphone.

Rode makes a brilliant lav and headset mic product range which has interchangeable output connectors, both 3.5mm and XLR are available as well as several other options.

You did not identify your lav mic or tell us where it came from or more specifically what is wired for. It is possible that a commercial adapter might be available that would allow proper use (if you haven't fried the mic).
 
Thanks for your help guys. I appreciate it. I have the mic that came with my Sennheiser G3 kit. It's not powered. I'm going to look into that Rode mic you mentioned. Do you happen to know the model number of the mic you mentioned?
 
WOW, you can fry a mic by doing that? Good to know. The rode is just called the rode lav mic.

What makes it able to work with a simple adapter though? Does it record at a different level or something?
 
So... I'm having a similar problem with my new Tascam DR-40. Because of technical problems, I emailed Richard off line about my issue and got a helpful response which I want to share, and of course, ask another question or two. Below is my question and Richard's response. I'll post my question in a second reply...

Q: I just bought a Tascam DR-40 and have a Rode Lav, but am getting nothing through the lav. I owned the Rode prior to the Tascam purchase and it's equipped with a 1/8" micon adapter, which I am plugging into a 1/4" adapter to then fit into the Tascam, but alas, nothing. Is there just not enough power from the Tascam to power it I wonder. I know I can buy an XLR adapter for the Rode, but would that make the difference?

A: The 1/4 inch inputs on the DR-40 are line-level inputs (page 47 of the owner’s manual). You will never hear anything from plugging any microphone into a line-level input. On the DR-40 or any other equipment. I would agree that the owner’s manual is extraordinarily abrupt and vague in that area.

Not only are the signal levels completely mismatched (the line-level input expects a signal thousands of times higher than any microphone produces), but no line-level input produces the power required for operating most condenser mics, neither “plug-in power” (around 3~5 volts) nor “phantom power” (24~48V).

You must use a microphone-level input if you have a microphone-level source (like a microphone). In your case of the DR-40, that means using the XLR inputs, not the 1/4 inch inputs.

You did not reveal WHICH of the Micon adapters you are using. Please fully disclose exact model numbers whenever you ask about any equipment. There are three different Micon adapters that have 3.5mm outputs. But in any case, none of them are designed for use with 1/4 inch line inputs.

If you want to use your Rode mic with your DR-40, it would appear that you need to use the Micon-5 adapter for XLR inputs. I would expect that to work for you.
 
Thanks again Richard for your initial response. I do have a Rode micon 2 and used a 1/4" adapter to fit the Tascam input.
What are the line level inputs for then if not mics? Is this for plugging guitars into or other instruments? Excuse the lame questions. I'm a still photographer and am new to audio.

I'll order the micon 5 and will see if that fixes the problem.
 
What are the line level inputs for then if not mics?
Click to expand...
"Line-level" and "mic-level" are VERY DIFFERENT things. As I said, line-level is around 1000 times greater than mic-level. You can attenuate a line-level signal down to mic-level using some resistors costing a few pennies. But it takes active circuitry (a mic preamp) to boost the mic-level signal up to line-level. Typically, circuits like mixers and recorders use line-level internally for optimal signal-to-noise performance.

We typically don't even use the same kinds of connectors for line-level vs. mic-level signals. The DR-40 and many other modern devices use those "combo" jacks that accommodate both XLR and 1/4 inch phone plugs. XLR connectors are almost exclusively used for mic-level signals, but XLR connectors are also used for line-level signals. Many XLR microphone inputs provide "phantom power" (defined as 48V, but sometimes lower) for use with professional condenser microphones.

1/4 inch phone plugs are used almost exclusively for line-level signals, but are also used for speaker-level and for headphones, etc. It is VERY rare to see 1/4 inch connectors used for mic-level, and typically in obsolete equipment.
Is this for plugging guitars into or other instruments?
Click to expand...

Electric guitars (and other instruments) also use 1/4 inch plugs almost exclusively. The signal out of a passive (no internal amplifier, battery, etc.) electric guitar (or bass, etc.) signal level is also VERY LOW, and similar to mic-level. But guitar inputs don't ever provide "phantom power" or "plug-in power", so they won't work with any microphones that require any kind of power. The 1/4 inch phone inputs on the DR-40 appear to be line-level, and not suitable for guitars (except out of the guitar amplifier "head" (pre-amplifier) which makes the signal into line-level, indistinguishable from any other line-level source.

3.5mm connectors are frequently used in smaller and/or lower-end equipment for mic-level, and very often provide "plug-in power" (3~5 volts) for powering the typical electret condenser microphones.

Here is a description of "line-level" that provides more complete information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_level
 
jason bradley said:
What are the line level inputs for then if not mics? Is this for plugging guitars into or other instruments?
Click to expand...

They are for, as the name implies, line-level inputs.

This can get a little confusing because the term "deciBel" (aka dB) is not a set value but is only a measure of relativity to an assigned reference value (indicated as 0dB), and there are many different dB scales. For instance, dB SPL is for Sound Pressure Level, and is a measure of acoustic energy or the strength of the sound as it travels through the air. There's dB as a measure of recorded sound level, and that's what you're watching on the meters of your DR-40 (and there are several variations of this between analog and digital worlds). There's also dB as a measure of the voltage of a sound signal, which pertains to the actual electronic signal as it flows through the cables and components. This last one is where we are:

Line-level signals over balanced connection (3-conductor, which means it has separate positive, negative, and ground wires) is generally +4dB. This is connected over 1/4" TRS (Tip-Ring-Sleeve) or XLR, though it can be wired over various other connectors. Unbalanced line-level (also often called "consumer" line-level) is -10dB, and is connected over only two conductors (+, and then a shared -/ground) through things like 1/4" TS (Tip-Sleeve) or RCA, though again it can be wired over many other connectors as well. In fact, if you have either 1/8" or 1/4" TRS that is wired to carry a stereo (two-channel) signal, it's unbalanced sicne you have +, +, and a shared -/ground.

Mic-level is generally around -50dB, give or take. This is a much weaker signal than line-level.

Here's the catch: there's no mic-level recording. To be properly recorded, a mic must be sent through a pre-amp to bring it up to line-level. This is what a pre-amp does in its most basic form. Things like phantom power are added features found on some pre-amp devices. With your DR-40, the XLR inputs accept mic-level and send the signal through the pre-amp. They also provide the needed phantom power, should you have that option activated. The 1/4" inputs (balanced TRS) do not utilize the pre-amp, so the signal is not affected and thus cannot bring a mic-level signal up the way it needs.

As for guitars and other instruments, there is an "instrument level" that's lower than line but higher than mic, generally over unbalanced 1/4". These still need some amplification. The Zoom H4n's mis-named "line-level" 1/4" inputs are acutally designed to work with instrument-level.
 
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Are the 1/4 inch inputs on the DR-40 actually instrument-level, or line-level? The user manual is pathetically devoid of any practical information.
 
Richard Crowley said:
Are the 1/4 inch inputs on the DR-40 actually instrument-level, or line-level? The user manual is pathetically devoid of any practical information.
Click to expand...

They are designed for balanced, +4dB line-level. However, as with most devices in this class, I believe they simply pad the input way down rather than bypassing the pre-amp entirely. I called TASCAM and spoke with someone in their tech support department to get clarification, and he had absolutely no clue. Nice to know their "engineers" are so well-trained.

It still provides a really clean signal, though.
 
Thanks Alex and Richard,
Surprised to hear about Tascams lack of info. I kind of wish they wouldn't use those hybrid XLR/1/4" plugs then. They are certainly deceiving for novices like me. Sounds like the micon 5 or Rode XLR adapter should work with the DR-40, so I'll order one of those up and will post back with the results should this finally work.

I was using this Lav with a Sony PCM-D1 which doesn't have the phantom power option, so I thought this one would just work, but alas I wasn't considering the plugs ability, or lack of, to communicate signal efficiently.

That said, now I'm back to being a bit confused as to why my Rode lav, with micon 2, wasn't working with my Sony PCM-D1. That, very expensive unit, has no XLR, only a 1/8" mic input.
 
It seems impossible that you have a Rode lav mic with a Micon-2 adapter that operated properly with the Sony PCM-D1. As you say, the PCM-D1 does NOT have "plug-in power", so where is your Rode lav mic getting power from? Are you using some other equipment you have not revealed here?
 
Richard Crowley said:
Are the 1/4 inch inputs on the DR-40 actually instrument-level, or line-level? The user manual is pathetically devoid of any practical information.
Click to expand...
The DR-40's line-in is balanced +4dB ref. ( up to +22dBu as I recall) via the XLR, OR 1/4".
I suspect the same as Alex, (a padded mic (line) level)
I can't get a strait answer or circuit schematic from Tascam either.

Jason, a 1/8" input would normally have 'Plug-in' power.. an XLR, Phantom Pwr., which is very different. With a lav, a Phantom Pwr adapter transforms Phantom down to Plug-in Pwr. ( aka, Bias current)
 
Richard Crowley said:
It seems impossible that you have a Rode lav mic with a Micon-2 adapter that operated properly with the Sony PCM-D1. As you say, the PCM-D1 does NOT have "plug-in power", so where is your Rode lav mic getting power from? Are you using some other equipment you have not revealed here?
Click to expand...

This is all I'm doing... Rode micon 2 straight into the Sony PCM-D1, and getting nothing. This I why I got the bright idea of buying the Tascam DR-40, because it has phantom power. What gets me is I asked the guy at zZounds.com that sold me the Tascam if it would work with what I had and he assured me it would.
lav2.JPG
 
Rick R said:
Jason, a 1/8" input would normally have 'Plug-in' power.. an XLR, Phantom Pwr., which is very different. With a lav, a Phantom Pwr adapter transforms Phantom down to Plug-in Pwr. ( aka, Bias current)
Click to expand...

Do you know if the Sony PCM-D1 has "plug-in" power?
Either way Rick, sounds like you concur in that my ordering a micon 5, or XLR connector for my Rode lav will solve my problem with the Tascam.
 
Rick R said:
Jason, a 1/8" input would normally have 'Plug-in' power.. an XLR, Phantom Pwr., which is very different. With a lav, a Phantom Pwr adapter transforms Phantom down to Plug-in Pwr. ( aka, Bias current)
Click to expand...
jason bradley said:
Do you know if the Sony PCM-D1 has "plug-in" power?
Click to expand...

So the Sony manual does read: "The recorder does not supply power to connected microphone (not suitable for plug-in power). Note that a plug-in power only microphone cannot be used with the recorder."
 
I never take advice from retail sales droids, whether in the shop or on the phone (or online). If they really knew anything they would probably have a better job. Coming to a specialty online forum like this (or other similar forums), or assembling a consensus opinion from a good session with Google searching is practically guaranteed yield more reliable results.

I found it quite surprising that the Sony PCM-D1 does not have plug-in power. Sony practically invented the concept, the PCM-D1 is rather a high-end gadget, and it literally costs only a few pennies to include the feature. I am a great Sony fan-boy, audio, video, and even computers. But alas the PCM-D1 looks high on style but short on practical features like XLR inputs, (or even powered 3.5mm mic input)

@Jason, alas, you have been the victim of an unfortunate series of small mis-cues. I am quite certain that the Rode Micon-5 will work with a conventional XLR with phantom power (such as those in your DR-40).
 
"I found it quite surprising that the Sony PCM-D1 does not have plug-in power."
Same here Richard.. and indeed it does not supply Plug-in Pwr.. (Pg, 27 of manual) I find that kind of bizarre, especially without the option of XLR inputs.
So I guess Jason's only other option is some kind of battery powered mic and/or an in-line battery module. Giant Squid might have something like that?
.. Or a dynamic lav, not many to choose from though, and they are generally lower in sensitivity than their powered cousins.
 
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Richard Crowley said:
I never take advice from retail sales droids, whether in the shop or on the phone (or online). If they really knew anything they would probably have a better job. Coming to a specialty online forum like this (or other similar forums), or assembling a consensus opinion from a good session with Google searching is practically guaranteed yield more reliable results.

@Jason, alas, you have been the victim of an unfortunate series of small mis-cues. I am quite certain that the Rode Micon-5 will work with a conventional XLR with phantom power (such as those in your DR-40).
Click to expand...

Rick R said:
So I guess Jason's only other option is some kind of battery powered mic and/or an in-line battery module. Giant Squid might have something like that?
.. Or a dynamic lav, not many to choose from though, and they are generally lower in sensitivity than their powered cousins.
Click to expand...

Here here Richard! I was too trusting with the guy on the phone. I like the idea of continuing with getting feedback from forums like this one, or from this one specifically. You and others have been helpful generous with your info. My experience so far with dvxuser.com has been very positive.

Again, off to buy my micon 5 (xlr adapter for my Rode lavelier), and I'll be back later in the week with the results.

Best, Jason
 
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