Talent versus 'mud, jello and banding'

[Barry_Green]

Either way, so far it's just not an efficient workflow when profit is your #1 driving factor in a full time biz.

I don't know that I'd say that. I'd say it's ridiculous. The pulldown-removal thing is the #1 reason I decided to pick up a 7D in addition to the GH1. It's my #1 complaint about the GH1. I can work around the "mud" or whatever, but the pulldown is just -- so ... 2002.

With that said -- with or without pulldown, the files should be exactly the same length. If the length is changing, something's wrong. The worst it should ever be is half a frame longer or shorter (well, the 60i/orig. version would be at most half a frame longer, the pulldown-removed version could be up to 1/2-frame shorter). That's it. Anything else is a bug or a mistake in the workflow.

 

[Ben_B]

I don't even get why it's using a pulldown?! It's less efficient (60i vs true 24p) or am I wrong on this? Also Mom and Pop consumer don't know how to remove pulldown, so wth?

Barry I reject your premise, everyone knows the 1080p mode is so unusable you don't even need to use it in the first place

 

[Park Edwards]

ma and pop just plug the camera into the tv, so why would they worry about pulldown? and with programs like roxio, you can burn avchd straight to dvd. but whatever, if people won't think outside their prosumer minds and not acknowledge that a flash can break up a codec isn't considered a bug, then i'm at a loss for words.

 

[Barry_Green]

not acknowledge that a flash can break up a codec isn't considered a bug, then i'm at a loss for words.

Of course it's a "bug" -- which is why I screamed about HDV when it first came out. But nobody cares. This "bug" afflicts HDV, and it afflicts network HD broadcasts. Nobody's gonna "fix" it. Nobody cares.

I hate long-GoP.

But at least the GH1 has a fix for it -- shoot MJPG instead, you won't get any degradation when a flash happens.

 

[Park Edwards]

welll, with all that being said, it's shitty. panasonic has no disclaimer for the consumer and they should. if they're going to ignore the people who're making their paychecks then wth man.

 

[Barry_Green]

welll, with all that being said, it's shi*ty. panasonic has no disclaimer for the consumer and they should. if they're going to ignore the people who're making their paychecks then wth man.

And JVC and Sony and Canon had no disclaimer on their HDV cameras that had the same problem, did they? And NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and all the other networks don't put up disclaimers showing how their low-bitrate broadcasts all have the same problem, do they?

Why do you think I spend so much time clamoring about long-GoP, rolling shutter, and aliasing issues? Where do you see any disclaimers from Sony or Canon or Panasonic about rolling shutter causing scrolling waves of orange bands throughout your images? Where do we see any disclaimers from any of them about vibration causing rubbery jello images in your footage? Where do we see disclaimers from any of them about *any* of the various image artifacts that occur due to the new technologies they're employing?

 

[Ben_B]

And JVC and Sony and Canon had no disclaimer on their HDV cameras that had the same problem, did they? And NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and all the other networks don't put up disclaimers showing how their low-bitrate broadcasts all have the same problem, do they?

Why do you think I spend so much time clamoring about long-GoP, rolling shutter, and aliasing issues? Where do you see any disclaimers from Sony or Canon or Panasonic about rolling shutter causing scrolling waves of orange bands throughout your images? Where do we see any disclaimers from any of them about vibration causing rubbery jello images in your footage? Where do we see disclaimers from any of them about *any* of the various image artifacts that occur due to the new technologies they're employing?

Hey we kind of do get a disclaimer on the weaknesses of CMOS c/o Panasonic! When talking about the camera he even says "the other problem" etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whyzpwqXixU

 

[Park Edwards]

And JVC and Sony and Canon had no disclaimer on their HDV cameras that had the same problem, did they? And NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and all the other networks don't put up disclaimers showing how their low-bitrate broadcasts all have the same problem, do they?

Why do you think I spend so much time clamoring about long-GoP, rolling shutter, and aliasing issues? Where do you see any disclaimers from Sony or Canon or Panasonic about rolling shutter causing scrolling waves of orange bands throughout your images? Where do we see any disclaimers from any of them about vibration causing rubbery jello images in your footage? Where do we see disclaimers from any of them about *any* of the various image artifacts that occur due to the new technologies they're employing?

sure....

 

[Cranky]

I don't know that I'd say that. I'd say it's ridiculous. The pulldown-removal thing is the #1 reason I decided to pick up a 7D in addition to the GH1. It's my #1 complaint about the GH1. I can work around the "mud" or whatever, but the pulldown is just -- so ... 2002.

Why do you think Panasonic did that? I know that you do not have exact information, but what do you suspect? The SD9/HS9 and the SD100/HS100 had native 1080p24 recording, but the GH1 uses pulldown, and the TM300/HS300 use pulldown too. The HMC40 does not use it. Does Panasonic want to steer customers interested in a certain feature from "consumer" products to "professional" products?

 

[Cranky]

I think I am starting to hate shallow DOF, which, combined with shakycam and constant focus adjusting, gives me instant head- and eye-ache. Sorry, I could not finish watching your video.

Yesterday I watched Dirty Pretty Things by BBC TV, very little shallow DOF throughout the movie, yet it look very cinematic, because hey, it was real cinema.

 

[Barry_Green]

Why do you think Panasonic did that? I know that you do not have exact information, but what do you suspect?

Because the consumer lives in a 60i world, and he by and large doesn't edit.

I hate it, I say let the camera add the pulldown on the fly. Native 24p was the greatest thing to happen to the indie filmmaker, and this pulldown stuff is a huge step backward.

 

[Cranky]

Because the consumer lives in a 60i world, and he by and large doesn't edit.

So, Panasonic made a mistake? Twice? (Two consecutive generations of consumer products). Now they "fixed" the "problem" and we will never see native 24p in a consumer product? Then I'd rather pull my SD100 off eBay ;-)

At the same time, Canon added native 24p to the HV40.

 

[commanderspike]

It's not so much they made a mistake. The GH1 is a consumer camera, and is targeted to the consumer. Panasonic don't see the point of adding 24mbps, fixing mud or enabling native 24p.

I'm afraid my negative-Panasonic cap is going back on, because I find that the 5D is a camera which is embraced by professionals and Canon seem to see the worth in those who want to create broadcast quality work, and not just shoot holiday vids for Facebook. We know the GH1 is capable of much better than that. My opinion of Panasonic versus Canon has swapped around in recent months, because I think Panasonic are unsure of what step to take in the DSLR video world whilst Canon are taking the bull by the horns. Witness the the Mark IV and now confirmed 5D's 24p firmware update. From Panasonic, I'm afraid - silence - as before. Canon listened to their customers regarding the 5D. Panasonic don't even acknowledge we exist.

The GH2 needs to be pretty special image quality wise to complete with the next generation of high sensitivity video dSLRs. With the release of the GH1 I saw Panasonic as being innovative and forward thinking, but they do have a problem over image quality and listening to their customers, in my view.

 

[Ben_B]

It's not so much they made a mistake. The GH1 is a consumer camera, and is targeted to the consumer. Panasonic don't see the point of adding 24mbps, fixing mud or enabling native 24p.

I'm afraid my negative-Panasonic cap is going back on, because I find that the 5D is a camera which is embraced by professionals and Canon seem to see the worth in those who want to create broadcast quality work, and not just shoot holiday vids for Facebook. We know the GH1 is capable of much better than that. My opinion of Panasonic versus Canon has swapped around in recent months, because I think Panasonic are unsure of what step to take in the DSLR video world whilst Canon are taking the bull by the horns. Witness the the Mark IV and now confirmed 5D's 24p firmware update. From Panasonic, I'm afraid - silence - as before. Canon listened to their customers regarding the 5D. Panasonic don't even acknowledge we exist.

The GH2 needs to be pretty special image quality wise to complete with the next generation of high sensitivity video dSLRs. With the release of the GH1 I saw Panasonic as being innovative and forward thinking, but they do have a problem over image quality and listening to their customers, in my view.

Ok wow...Canon is giving them 24p...now I am pissed at Panasonic as well...I'd really like to see something from them...24pn in 1080 and 720 for starters, maybe live composite out...ugh...wow...I am gonna send some emails to the Lumix PR people I've talked to...they've nothing to do with setting policy but they at least sometimes respond...this is absurd.

 

[commanderspike]

Yep Ben, and it's now official http://www.canon-europe.com/About_U...ries/EOS_5D_MarkII_Media_Alert.asp?source=rss

Panasonic has let my frustration grow to the point of buying a 5D to see what the fuss was about. And Canon's 24/25p firmware update 'due to demand from cinematographers' is the final nail in the GH1's small sized coffin. Unfortunately I've decided to sell my GH1. You see what happens when you don't listen to customers, Panasonic?

 

[ydgmdlu]

Unfortunately I've decided to sell my GH1. You see what happens when you don't listen to customers, Panasonic?

Unfortunately, Panasonic has already gotten your money for the GH1, and you know that you'll be keeping an eye out for a GH2... They might as well be laughing all the way to the bank...

But the fact that the only truly notable GH1 firmware change was to lock-out third-party batteries stands in stark contrast to Canon's manual controls and 24p firmwares. Truly sad and telling, indeed.

 

[commanderspike]

Well, I am pretty sure it doesn't make business sense for them. As it's highly unlikely I'll trade my 5D for a GH2 now the 24p update is confirmed and I've invested in a bunch of Canon lenses.