Talent versus 'mud, jello and banding'

commanderspike

commanderspike

Carbonite Member
On each thread about the issues of the first generation VDSLRs, we here some camera owner defending their purchase along the lines of:

"If you shoot good footage like a pro, you won't have any problems with mud / jello / banding (delete where appropriate)"

I have had enough of reading such BS.

One of the things that encourages the 'negativity threshold' to be crossed is the argument that follows from these kinds of interventions in tech threads. Because it's basically saying to people with genuine concerns - "look, it's your fault because you're not worthy / talented enough to use the camera properly". But I don't see how people are qualified to accuse one another of this, and I see it as very negative. Much more negative than pointing out real faults with the technology and coming up with solutions or work-arounds where possible. And it is often newer members who are the brunt of such comments so I don't see how it's good for growing the community.

The only knowledge which is helpful is identifying issues, finding out how serious they are and in what situations they arise, putting them into perspective and comparing cameras, then hopefully finding a solution or work-around.

For instance, in the mud thread we all found out from our own GH1s, that the problem only really occurs with certain types of shot. It doesn't occur on static shots with shallow DOF which are often considered 'beautiful'. It DOES occur more often on handheld footage or jerky whip pans and zooms which are considered 'ugly'. This leads many to say that "if you shoot 'right' then it's not an issue!". But it's not true, and it lead me into a false sense of security that I could get away with using 1080p in situations where the more logical people on this forum and even my own knowledge suggested that it wasn't possible to use. The shots in this case were beautiful but not after 'mud' struck them dead. They contained a lot of grass / tree detail whilst camera was floating along smoothly on a steadicam.

Those who still believe that only 'bad' footage is effected by the GH1's issues or the 5D's aliasing / moire, are in for a shock one day (on paid work!) if they don't heed their camera's limitations.

*Rant over*
 
Pros paid for ability with years of learning. The message of this technogical revolution is that you can cheaply purchase a lot of what used to set pro work aside. That is what the camera companies rely on to drive a new purchase every year. The response of the pros is to highlight the skills that cannot be purchased. What the camera companies say and what the pros say are both correct.

I sugggest that discussing the very real limitations of new equipment is not negative, as so many people seem to thnk, but really a way to step back from the marketing hype and acknowledge the role that skill plays in film making. The more we learn about limitations the more we see the skill needed to make the wonderful demo videos the companies release with each new model.

Just telling people to stop comparing notes and go out and make films plays into the hands of the camera marketing types and hides the real skill needed to make films. In the old days the rate of technological change was so slow that it could be ignored. Now each generation of affordable cameras is a different compromise. Pointing out those compromises is the only way to separate poor results due to technology and those due to lack of skill. From my background as a technological marketer I know that unless this is done people will ignore skill and think they can purchase results by constantly upgrading.
 
"If you shoot good footage like a pro, you won't have any problems with mud / jello / banding (delete where appropriate)"
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I guess it's another way of saying that professionals use the right tool for the right job. If you know the limitations of each tool, you won't try to bang in a nail with the blunt end of a screwdriver. It's possible to do it, but you probably won't get as good a result as using a hammer. Likewise with ANY camera, it will be good for this and bad for that. Don't take a shot that you have learned from experience will not work, much as you might wish that it would work.
 
Burn them! Burn them at the stake! How dare they say they can get a good image out of that camera! IMPOSSIBLE! Burn them!
 
The fact is that the only real "hype" we see on these boards comes mainly from ourselves, the collective User. Canon (or any other company) announces a new camera, puts out a press release, and we all start foaming at the mouth, in hopes that finally, we might receive the "Jesus-Camera," the tool to end all debate.

First footage is posted.
Jaws are dropped.
Ship dates are pushed back.
Palms get sweaty.
The cameras arrive.
A "flaw" is revealed.
And there is much regret.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

We drive the "hype" train. Others may post early footage and opinion, but we peep, dissect and critique endlessly.

And at the end of the day, all of these cameras are just tools. Comments about usability and talent usually come from those who don't even post under their real names, so don't take any of it personally. Take the information as just that, information, and use it (or don't) to help shoot better footage.

When I first got the GH1, I read plenty about "mud" and all that. So I got around that issue by shooting in 720p mode. Not a big deal, as it perfectly suited the job I was doing. But ultimately, I learned far more by actually going out and shooting with the camera than I did by reading anything on this site. Of course, in the process I also came across another issue (color shifting), and have now shared that with others here.

That, to me is what this site is about. Read a bit. Learn some. Go out and shoot. Learn some more. Share what you've learned. And never take any of it personally. After all, I don't know you or your talent level. Why would anything I say about that topic matter to you?

Now, Caffesse, on the other hand, I do know. That guy's a hack.
 
The first thing I can say is that I'm not a professional making money using video cameras and GH1 is first video camera I've ever handled.

Next thing I would like to say is that I shot about 29 minutes of footage using GH1 in 1080P mode unknowingly that I'm in 1080P mode and still I was able to get almost all of the footage MUD FREE(and it was all hand held footage).

What I would like to say is that the reason I did not get any MUD in my footage is because I did not expect to get great footage while I was panning the camera like crazy.

About getting MUD when zooming, I'm stil to encounter it and even if I will encounter it I would like to have a workaround because for 1500$ I do not expect perfection.

This 1500$ camera has given me lots of opportunities I would not get at this price.

YES, I do expect the BLUE colour issue to be fixed as that is the only thing I find with it till now that I really thing THAT SHOULD BE FIXED(not because I've encountered it, but because now I know that it happens and that's the only thing I find unacceptable because it's a malfunction that happens when you use the camera like a sane filmmaker).
 
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And another thing I would like to add is that as a Musician, I find that the same thing happens with every Music Sequencer out in the market - There are hundreds of musicians who use a particular sequencer and keep raving what their favorite sequencer should have or is missing.

What I've learned is to understand the strengths and weaknesses of tools you use.
 
BhambuNath said:
YES, I do expect the BLUE colour issue to be fixed as that is the only thing I find with it till now that I really thing THAT SHOULD BE FIXED(not because I've encountered it, but because now I know that it happens and that's the only thing I find unacceptable because it's a malfunction that happens when you use the camera like a sane filmmaker).
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With all due respect to each's own personal concerns, I wasn't filming like an 'insane' filmmaker on this, but still got mud where should have been grass & tree detail.

This was the end of the GH1 for me. But I am sick of pointing it out. No wonder it's getting perceived as negative. Look - it doesn't have to be the end of GH1 ownership for you. Don't be upset or see me as bashing your camera. You can still get great footage with it. I now have swapped it for a 5D which has all round much better image quality but for a higher price and a few sacrifices in usability, primarily the lack of AF (of any kind) and a lack of a flip out screen. But for me, image quality is king and IN MY VIEW the GH1 is great but not quite good enough when there are cameras like the 5D around.

Mud is a more serious issue than blue colour shift. Mud was revealed way back in May just after the camera was released and almost everyone experiences it. Blue shift - well first we knew of that was just this week!!

But getting back on topic... there has to be a balance between criticising what is a great camera and discussing it's flaws. Too often the discussion of flaws is perceived as being GH1 bashing, when it isn't.
 
commanderspike said:
With all due respect to each's own personal concerns, I wasn't filming like an 'insane' filmmaker on this, but still got mud where should have been grass & tree detail.

This was the end of the GH1 for me. But I am sick of pointing it out. No wonder it's getting perceived as negative. Look - it doesn't have to be the end of GH1 ownership for you. Don't be upset or see me as bashing your camera. You can still get great footage with it. I now have swapped it for a 5D which has all round much better image quality but for a higher price and a few sacrifices in usability, primarily the lack of AF (of any kind) and a lack of a flip out screen. But for me, image quality is king and IN MY VIEW the GH1 is great but not quite good enough when there are cameras like the 5D around.

Mud is a more serious issue than blue colour shift. Mud was revealed way back in May just after the camera was released and almost everyone experiences it. Blue shift - well first we knew of that was just this week!!

But getting back on topic... there has to be a balance between criticising what is a great camera and discussing it's flaws. Too often the discussion of flaws is perceived as being GH1 bashing, when it isn't.
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I did not mean to say that people shoot like insane when I said 'if you shoot like sane', sorry did not mean to come out with something demeaning to anybody with that. All I wanted to get across was that not many scenes have crazy pans and few that have will not be pixel peeped into.

Yes, grass and greenery is the biggest nemesis of this camera but it only happens with stuff that is not the main subject and it sure turns the green into indistinguishable mess at places. I wish it was not like that, but I can live with it because I was not expecting a camera like this for 1500$.

I'm yet to experience the mud except when panning crazy so I can live with it too...
 
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Sure sure. I am in two minds at all time with this mud debate.

One hand, I hate mentioning it or reading about it.
On the other hand, people must be careful to avoid comments like 'talent is king' or 'its not a big issue' in technical threads regarding mud and banding, because for some people these are genuine concerns.

For me, it only becomes a genuine concern when it effects my footage.

I think if we all had a bit more understanding and avoided belittling each other's concerns, it'd be a more helpful forum. Less entertaining maybe :) But more helpful to read.
 
Car3o said:
commanderspike is to the gh1 as johncab was to the d90.
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I have no idea what this means, but if johncab only ever posted negative things about the D90, then I am not that person for the GH1. This forum has sold as many GH1s as it has lost sales for Panasonic. The truth is out and Panasonic benefited / suffered as appropriate. There is two sides to every story. In the mean time, I await the first useful GH1 forum contribution from Car3o and have ordered my cryogenic freezing ticket so I can be resurrected when that time comes. :engel017:
 
Well, here's the bottom line:

ALL of these cameras have significant flaws. The GH1 has flaws. The 7D has flaws. The 5D has flaws. The K-X has flaws. The D90 has flaws.

The ALL do. And any other camera that comes out in the same price range, is going to have its own set of flaws. That is the immutable law of the cheap price tag. All these manufacturers are generally equally competent. They make these products at this price point to the best of their ability, but there's only so much that can be done at these price points!

And so therefore, if you know what the flaws are, and what circumstances they rear their heads under, then you are prepared to make an intelligent decision, which basically comes down to this:
1) either work around the flaw, or
2) forget it and wait for the next generation

That's it. The flaw doesn't "go away" because you're a talented shooter. But an intelligent shooter, who's aware of the flaws and how they come about, can put the odds greatly in their favor to avoid when the issues arise. Or, they can be well versed in knowing whether their camera can even get the kind of shot that's being contemplated.

So yes, if you want the miracle of shallow-DOF interchangeable-lens goodness for $2,000, you're going to have to work harder than anyone else. You're going to have to expend more effort, and more brainpower, trying to keep from running into the flaws. That is the additional price you have to pay.

If you don't want to jump through those hoops, DON'T BUY A $2,000 SLR to shoot video with!

These SLRs are only really valid for the hoop-jumpers, those of us willing to figure out what the problems are and then shoot around them.

If, instead, you just want to "believe the hype", and put your head in the sand and just shoot and hope and pray everything's going to turn out fantastic -- well, you're going to get burned sooner or later. Hard. And you will have nobody to blame but yourself for not doing your homework and for believing in the something-for-nothing principle -- you are not going to get $20,000 worth of camera in a $2,000 package. You will not. It doesn't happen, there are flaws, there are reasons these products cost 1/4 to 1/10 of what a professional video camera costs. Good reasons.

So work around the problems to find the camera's happy zone and stay there, or suffer the consequences.
 
Indeed, flaws are forgivable at this price level.

It's interesting to see how video on stills cameras came about.

CMOS technology was chosen for faster continuous shooting rates and lower power consumption. CMOS sensors are faster than their CCD counterparts.

As the CMOS technology improved, over the last 5 years, video became a technical feasibility on such large sensors. The consumer's demand for anything 'HD' led to HD video modes on most compact cameras, and the average Joe's thirst for compact-camera ease of use lead to live view on DSLRs and the development of the G1.

Now in 2008 / 09 we have the logical progression of this - a sensor designed to give a live view feed being advanced enough to just about manage a 1080p output.

In the limited time between now and the sensor becoming capable enough, the manufacturers put in place their own solutions for recording video from the sensor. Panasonic with the G1 were best placed for this, because they'd already developed a super-fast contrast detect system for AF, and their full time live view display with no mirror-box is handy for video. Canon had the better sensor technology (just) but their cameras are more traditional SLRs.

We are just at the start of the journey into VDSLRs and already the quality is stunning compared to what we had before at this price point in the consumer camcorder market.

The next step by the manufacturer's is one of great interest.

Do they integrate their camcorder and stills divisions?
Do they design their stills cameras around video or visa versa?
Will they harm their own sales in doing so?
How far will they strive to improve the video modes on their DSLRS?

I'll guess we'll see the answers and an insight to their various strategies from what comes next, i.e. the 1D Mark IV and GH2.

Until then... enjoy what we have... nothing, as Barry puts it, is perfect. Everything can be improved upon.
 
I just finished my first official day of filming with the GH1, on my first feature film, and here's my take on all of the above.

I agree with both sides.

There are flaws with the camera, some of which I believe should be addressed by Panasonic, but I also do not expect a perfect camera for the GH1 price.

On the other hand, when I followed the professional advice I've received from this awesome website, I got some pretty spectactular shots.... and when I slacked off, the footage suffered... period.

That's pretty much it. So why go on and on about this?

The camera is an awesome video tool with some really annoying, yet sermountable issues.
 
commanderspike said:
I have no idea what this means, but if johncab only ever posted negative things about the D90, then I am not that person for the GH1. This forum has sold as many GH1s as it has lost sales for Panasonic. The truth is out and Panasonic benefited / suffered as appropriate. There is two sides to every story. In the mean time, I await the first useful GH1 forum contribution from Car3o and have ordered my cryogenic freezing ticket so I can be resurrected when that time comes. :engel017:
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hehe, then you haven't been around long enough buddy. i've probably at least 10 threads just to tutorials from the d90, to 35mm adapters to premiere. when, i get my adapter, i'm sure i'll post some more helpful posts about the gh1. if you can't handle a little sarcasm i have a money jar for every time i make someone cry. it's a little full at the moment, but there's still some room. insert sarcasm icon here.
 
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