Syncing audio/video in Premiere Pro CS5

T

tfg

Well-known member
So I'm a FCP editor by day-job…loving the new Ppro CS5 … but I've come across a problem:

I'm editing a film, shot on a DSLR, audio separately recorded. I've been supplied with WAV files and the MOV from the camera.

H264 playback is a dream in pproCS5… but I can't figure out a way to merge this video with the WAV files.

The only option I see is to put both video and WAV sources onto a timeline, sync them up and then "link" them… but this is quite a bad way of doing it. In FCP you can select Video/Audio sources in your browser, then "merge" them into 1 video clip. Then if you place that videoclip on the timeline the external WAV sources are laid down with it, as if it were all 1 movie file you're putting down on the timeline.

Please tell me Premiere pro has something like this? If not... screw that -- I'll gladly use FCP.

EDIT: I've talked to Adobe. It doesn't have a comparable function. Bugger.
 
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tfg said:
So I'm a FCP editor by day-job…loving the new Ppro CS5 … but I've come across a problem:

I'm editing a film, shot on a DSLR, audio separately recorded. I've been supplied with WAV files and the MOV from the camera.

H264 playback is a dream in pproCS5… but I can't figure out a way to merge this video with the WAV files.

The only option I see is to put both video and WAV sources onto a timeline, sync them up and then "link" them… but this is quite a bad way of doing it. In FCP you can select Video/Audio sources in your browser, then "merge" them into 1 video clip. Then if you place that videoclip on the timeline the external WAV sources are laid down with it, as if it were all 1 movie file you're putting down on the timeline.

Please tell me Premiere pro has something like this? If not... screw that -- I'll gladly use FCP.

EDIT: I've talked to Adobe. It doesn't have a comparable function. Bugger.
Click to expand...

Uh, and why is placing the video and audio in a sequence timeline, aligning the clapper mark audio and video, then linking them to fix their relationship a 'bad thing'?

I have Final Cut Express, and for the life of me, I could not figure out what 'feature' of FC that you were using to take an arbitrary audio track and 'place' it with an arbitrary video clip, without placing both in a time line, then using it as an single 'entity' if that is what was desired.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
Uh, and why is placing the video and audio in a sequence timeline, aligning the clapper mark audio and video, then linking them to fix their relationship a 'bad thing'?
Click to expand...

Fair quesiton.

It's not entirely a 'bad thing' it's just slower and far less efficient. Also - I'm not sure if FCE has this feature. It might be a FCP-only item.

Think about it: once you've synced your stuff up on the timeline, how do you edit? Do you use the razor tool and start chopping up the shot? What if you're editing a conversation thats pops back and forth between angles? Do you also line up the other shot(s) and layer everything on the timeline do your edit via a bunch of razor edits? Do you build a big stack of synced shots and slide/move/razor/roll edit with your mouse on the timeline? This certainly gets the job done, but there it seems cumbersome. Seriously -- I'm interested in how a Premiere editor handles this. I'd like to see it in action.

If you didn't have to worry about audio how would you edit? Personally I would open a shot in the viewer, select an in/out point, and then overlay or insert edit the shot (I don't remember what native hotkey is, but I use F10 for my overlay and F9 for my insert). The edit process becomes a continuous overlay and insert game, in logical sequence, which allows me to move very quickly and think about the project from an artistic/creative point. Other workflows can certainly get the job done, but I can't imagine they are nearly as fast or flexible from a creative standpoint. As it stands right now, Premiere cannot link external audio to video clips BEFORE laying on the timeline… which throws this workflow out the window unless you want to manually link them "after the edit" - which is even worse than anything we've mentioned in this thread. Essentially Premiere demands that you use a different edit strategy just to deal with the external audio. With FCP you can link up your external sources and then treat the footage the same as any footage - whether it had external or internal audio -- it's all the same. You can forgot about the audio factor all together from that point on.
 
tfg said:
Fair quesiton.

It's not entirely a 'bad thing' it's just slower and far less efficient. Also - I'm not sure if FCE has this feature. It might be a FCP-only item.

Think about it: once you've synced your stuff up on the timeline, how do you edit? Do you use the razor tool and start chopping up the shot? What if you're editing a conversation thats pops back and forth between angles? Do you also line up the other shot(s) and layer everything on the timeline do your edit via a bunch of razor edits? Do you build a big stack of synced shots and slide/move/razor/roll edit with your mouse on the timeline? This certainly gets the job done, but there it seems cumbersome. Seriously -- I'm interested in how a Premiere editor handles this. I'd like to see it in action.

If you didn't have to worry about audio how would you edit? Personally I would open a shot in the viewer, select an in/out point, and then overlay or insert edit the shot (I don't remember what native hotkey is, but I use F10 for my overlay and F9 for my insert). The edit process becomes a continuous overlay and insert game, in logical sequence, which allows me to move very quickly and think about the project from an artistic/creative point. Other workflows can certainly get the job done, but I can't imagine they are nearly as fast or flexible from a creative standpoint. As it stands right now, Premiere cannot link external audio to video clips BEFORE laying on the timeline… which throws this workflow out the window unless you want to manually link them "after the edit" - which is even worse than anything we've mentioned in this thread. Essentially Premiere demands that you use a different edit strategy just to deal with the external audio. With FCP you can link up your external sources and then treat the footage the same as any footage - whether it had external or internal audio -- it's all the same. You can forgot about the audio factor all together from that point on.
Click to expand...

Like I said, I don't have FCP, so the way that I 'linked' up audio with video in FCE was: Drop Video in a sequence timeline, drop in audio to the sequence, align audio/video to mark, link audio and video.

If the issue is to the be able in the 'viewer' to treat that sequence as a 'clip', and set various in and out points for a number of 'subclips'...

I believe that is 'doable', at least my experiments seem to indicate that. The issue is getting the sequence in the 'source' monitor, as I believe it is called in Premiere.

I'll check the following if I have time at lunch.

For the sake of terminology... the combined video and 'external' audio are in a sequence called 'the Sync'd Clip".

So, the operations one would like to do on the Sync'd Clip are:

viewing the clip in the Source monitor, and changing in/out points.

Once the Sync'd Clip is placed in some other sequence timeline (just as if it was an 'original' clip)

Opening the Sync'd Clip in the source monitor for further adjustments.

Have multiple instances of different 'sub-clips' of the Sync'd Clip in possibly a number of sequences.


----------------

The way I have been getting the Sync'd Clip to the Source monitor is simply dragging it to the Source monitor window. I will check, but I think I've done this by dragging from the project browser, as well as from a sequence timeline where I have positioned the Sync'd Clip.

I'll retrace those steps.

In FC there is the concept of 'sub-clip' and 'master-clip', so I'll check to see of the equivalents in Premiere 'work' for the Sync'd Clip.
 
Please make a feature request.

Please make a feature request.

If you'd like to request a "merge clips" feature, please let us know by filing a feature request. We really appreciate feature requests, because they help us to prioritize our work as we build software that you want to use.
 
Once they are synced, they are synced (until they drift...), you can move, cut, paste. whatever, there are many other ways to edit, and if you don't like selecting the clips, use the "nesting" function so they act like one clip. Since I used to cut the film and tape I use the razor, either just cutting all the stacked clips on the timeline, or nesting into one clip. but I'm sure that is pretty old by now.
I like to adjust the audio between fades, so it is helpful to have each clip in frotn of me so I can draw out small sections and tweak them.
 
Nesting sequences is what you do and, in my opinion, is much more powerful than just doing a simple "merge" in the bin.
 
I feel compelled to once and for all explain this in the form of a web comic. Excuse by bad attempt at humor :P

PS: Premiere - I love you... but sometimes a little tough love is necessary ;)

jwcTB.gif
 
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Have you checked to see if it's ACTUALLY stereo, or if it's just grouping the clips together into one convenient bar? Plus, this is the first time you've mentioned multi-channel audio with your problem.
 
Ok, I see what you are talking about finally. The operative word was 'merged', which to me indicated that the added audio would be lined up with the first frame of video, whether that was intended or not, as well as add more than two channels of a stereo audio segment. I suppose that the 'merged' clip will allow you to open up the clip and slip the audio in to position where it should be relative to the marks. However, if you can only do that by dropping the merged file into a timeline, unlinking the several audio traks, then slipping them to bring them in to sync, I don't quite see that as significantly beneficial other than the 'housekeeping' of packaging.

The way I've used the dual system setup, is to take the 'mono' audio track and sync it up to the video for that take. Hence there is no problem with 'mixing', as it is a single mono audio line.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
Ok, I see what you are talking about finally. The operative word was 'merged', which to me indicated that the added audio would be lined up with the first frame of video, whether that was intended or not. I suppose that the 'merged' clip will allow you to open up the clip and slip the audio in to position where it should be relative to the marks. However, if you can only do that by dropping the merged file into a timeline, unlinking the several audio traks, then slipping them to bring them in to sync, I don't quite see that as significantly beneficial other than the 'housekeeping' of packaging.
Click to expand...

Glad that my comic helped! Yes: It significantly helps in 'housekeeping', and also being able to sort out the best audio channel AFTER the edit is done. It would also allow you to export proper OMFs into Logic Pro or Pro Tools. I realize that this kind of workflow is not necessary for every project, but perhaps you'll understand my bias after you've learned about my situation: I'm a former audio engineer, now TV editor. I'm trying to give Premiere Pro CS5 a serious chance, even convincing my studio to try a small TV show on it. However ... if I cannot even export an OMF with full audio channels it's never going to happen. And by "full channels" I mean that every audio channel linked on my first timeline has to get laid out on my final edit. No downmixing, no "linking within" of any kind. If I can't see all the audio channels on separate tracks on my final sequence, neither will the Pro Tools engineer -- and that's enough reason to keep Premiere CS5 out our studio unfortunately. If you can't tell by now - I'm really bummed out by this. Here's to hoping for improvement on CS6.

EDIT: Oh, sorry I didn't properly answer the first part of your question. The 'merged clip' does indeed have all audio tracks in sync. You go through each track and mark an "in point" - usually when you hear the clapper snap. Then you "merge based on in-point" although there are several other ways to merge also. If your audio guy gear and camera gear share timecode you can merge it automatically without really doing any extra work (but we're talking DSLR cameras... so that's not possible really...anyways). Basically your merged clips acts the same as a normal video clip, except it lays down all the audio tracks (always synced) to the timeline whenever you insert/overlay edit. There is never any "slipping them to bring in to sync" required ever after that.
 
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I still don't see how nested sequences are a problem. First you call it "multichannel audio" as if you have a surround sound mix. Now it's just different audio clips? And if you need to change one, that's what the "mute" selection is for. You can pick which track to be primary and export it from there. I still don't see how you're having a problem unless you're trying to bull rush it in one way (the way you're used to) instead of finding out the way you can make it work using nested sequences, which is easy enough.
 
subtleinspiration said:
I still don't see how nested sequences are a problem.
Click to expand...

This is where I'll stop trying to convince you and consider it a matter of opinion. It's "multichannel audio" because I've got camera audio, a boom mic, and 2 lavs.

subtleinspiration said:
And if you need to change one, that's what the "mute" selection is for. You can pick which track to be primary and export it from there.
Click to expand...

If I was doing a personal project I could indeed just pick my "best 2" audio sources and live with the fact that Premiere downmixes to stereo. However, in my "job" I don't have the authority to make that call. My job is to deliver all audio tracks to the audio post facility. They want to hear all of them, in sync, on every shot, because they want all possible options. They've got much better audio gear than me, and are frankly in a better position to judge which audio source is best suited for each shot.

subtleinspiration said:
I still don't see how you're having a problem unless you're trying to bull rush it in one way (the way you're used to) instead of finding out the way you can make it work using nested sequences, which is easy enough.
Click to expand...

I think we've shown that nested sequences don't do it right. If 'nesting' a sequence meant preserving every channel of audio separately then it would indeed work; but it doesn't.
 
What you might look into is PluralEyes or DualEyes from Singular Software. I use PluralEyes and there is a "replace audio" button that might be what you are looking for. I haven't used it yet though.

Best,

- Hunter
 
tfg, your response to me doesn't make much sense. Are you exporting the video with all four audio tracks in-tact that are switchable? That's a pretty neat trick if you are. How are you doing this? Or are you exporting video and audio as separate files? If so, you can STILL do this using nested sequences.

I don't think you've shown that nested sequences don't do it right. You're either not expressing yourself properly or, again, you're trying to bull rush a particular method of doing things when an alternate is present which is just as useful.
 
subtleinspiration said:
tfg, your response to me doesn't make much sense. Are you exporting the video with all four audio tracks in-tact that are switchable? That's a pretty neat trick if you are. How are you doing this? Or are you exporting video and audio as separate files? If so, you can STILL do this using nested sequences.

I don't think you've shown that nested sequences don't do it right. You're either not expressing yourself properly or, again, you're trying to bull rush a particular method of doing things when an alternate is present which is just as useful.
Click to expand...

Yes, exporting all 4 audio tracks that are switchable - exactly. This is done by exporting to an AAF or OMF once the edit is locked, which is then loaded into Pro Tools. If this is possible via nesting please show me as this is the crux of what I've failed to accomplish via Premiere.

EDIT: just for further clarification: It's also possible to export a quicktime movie (.mov) with multi channel audio also. For example: A single quicktime movie can contain multiple stereo or mono audio tracks. I can also show you how to do this from within FCP if you are interested - as I've also had a separate conversation with the Adobe team about this feature which is also not possible at the moment.
 
If you want each indiv track, and the stereo down mix, and the nested sequence, just paste the nested sequence into the original sequence. Then you can apply effects to each track individually. To remove any of the individual items, just hit the alt key, select and delete.To put all tracks in one file, which is something I would never do, but it may be useful, you can also create a 5.1 track, but I haven't tried it.
I do all my audio editing and automation in my DAW, so the stereo is fine for a placeholder. I'm not sure what the "syncing" advantage is, once they are synced, they are synced, presumably--having separate tracks means you can "unsync" them according to the speed of sound, which you always have to do unless working on a very small stage. Not being able to unsync is certainly one reason I don't combine my audio files.
I've never experienced the "botched audio" effect, just my own botched audio. Doh! Is this thing on?
 
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