Super8mm

Ryan Patrick O'Hara

Ryan Patrick O'Hara

Veteran
I'm going to do some extensive Super8mm tests for a future film I might sign on for cinematographer. I'm kinda bored with the RedOne right now, and some of the film will need to be a small camera, and I'm avoiding the 7D/5D for professional and personal reasons. Thus I'm looking at the SI-2k or Super8mm. I think I'm really gonna love the texture of super8. It's been about 5 years since I've shot on it. Since then it's only been 16mm and 35mm, as far as film goes.

This thread is for people who can offer experience, tips, or personal findings with super8mm. How to get a solid exposure is explanatory, but any developing, processing, transfer tips would be amazing. Also camera tricks would be good to hear.

I'm thinking about going to Pro8mm, however I've heard questionable things about them and to be honest all of their 'demo' footage looks like complete sh*t. Someone is shooting VisionIII 500t stock and it's simply a handheld vacation film from Asia. Surely they've seen something better, right?!

During the tests I'll be doing the following:

1) Testing under exposure and one stop pushing in processing. (or is the push better in DI?! I'd assume processing... )
2) Finding the BEST C-mount lenses to use. Primes.
3) Flashing. I'll be attaching colored lights on the mattebox pointed IN toward the lens. This is an old version of flexlight before the varicon system by arri. I want to momentarily flash reds into the film and get a pleasant result.

My biggest concerns are eliminating that crap handheld bounce which comes from using a lightweight camera and getting a thick negative with rich blacks, only going muddy during the red tinted flashes. I'll be strapping the camera to a larger/heavier rig to eliminate these issues, and perhaps doing a DI.

Any pointers on these issues I'd love to hear.

Right now, our only demands is 24fps, good glass, and VisionIII 500t. This shoot is going to be during the night mostly, probably in downtown Hollywood, LA or Vegas.

Thanks!
 
If you want to use C-mount lenses, that pretty much limits you to the Beaulieu cameras. Which is fine, because I think they're hands-down the best imaging tools ever made for Super 8. But interchangeable lenses on Super 8 cameras are quite rare; I think the only ones I can even remember are the Beaulieus and the Leicina Special (but that's not c-mount, it's a Leica mount).

There were some Double-Super-8 cameras like a Bolex, which would take c-mount lenses.

The hot stuff in S8 right now is the Max8 or Super-Duper-8 gate; it's where you file the gate wider to get a 1.58:1 aspect ratio instead of the standard 1.33.

I have used Pro8mm before and I think I got pretty much the worst-quality transfer from them, that I've ever had. To me, they seem to have a unique combination of profoundly high prices and low-quality service. I got much better service and quality from Yale, but keep in mind that this was all 10+ years ago that I was doing this.

If your requirements are 24fps and good glass, that limits you to a Beaulieu 6008 Pro, 7008 Pro, or 9008, as those are the only stock crystal-sync Super8 cameras with interchangeable lenses. You can modify certain Super8 cameras for crystal sync by going with The Film Group; it adds about $500-$600 to the cost to get an external crystal module.

The Beaulieus aren't quiet. In fact, I've rarely heard a Super8 camera as quiet as a good 16mm sync camera. Your best bet for quiet cameras is a "sound" camera, one that was made to record sound onto the film, like a Canon 1014XL-S or Elmo 1012S. In the Beaulieu lineup, the 6008S and 7008S are sound-recording cameras. I had a "pro"; I don't know if the "s" lineup is any quieter.

All the sound cameras are wild sync. I guess The Film Group could probably modify a 6008S to be crystal as well, so you'd perhaps end up with the best of all worlds at that point...

The Pro8mm Canon cameras can be crystal sync'd, but it ends up costing about $3500 for a 1014XL-s with crystal sync and a Max8 gate; that's a little much for a Super8 camera.

If you need crystal, it limits your choices, but if you don't mind wild/non-sync there are many more to choose from. And they can work okay if you keep your takes short, 10-20 seconds or so. Considering that an entire roll of film only lasts 2:30, you won't really be doing any long speeches anyway. But if you need to do long takes and keep 'em in sync, that means a Beaulieu or a TFG-modified crystal camera, and it probably means needing a serious barney or a blimp.
 
Wow Ryan, that is very ambitious. Vision III 500T pushed a stop... that is going to be GRAINY!! I love it.

I know that Spectra does Super 8 processing and transfers also, I have not used them, but I would call them.

http://www.spectrafilmandvideo.com/

and of course Pro 8mm. I have heard less than favorable thing about them also, but they look like the only turn key outfit for Super 8 around any more.

Good luck, keep us posted, that sounds like a great project.

EDIT: Yeah Barry, the Beaulieu cameras are the choice for interchangeable lens Super 8 cameras. I had a bad experience with a used Beaulieu 5008 BITD (proprietary batteries that wouldn't hold charge and a weird shutter issue that flashed the film), but I would just count that up to a bad camera. The Beaulieus are excellent cameras. If you need a second camera choice, I would go with a Canon 1014-XLS. I used one for a long time and loved it. The Canon 1014-XLS has a 220 degree shutter, a fast lens and I swear the camera damn near made light. I was able to use that camera in very low light, with relatively slow reversal stocks and made some great images. The Canon is not an interchangeable lens camera though, but if you get into a pinch finding lenses, the Canon would be a good second choice.
 
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Why do this?
Filmmakers will be interested, but the public will think "contrasty" and "grainy" and "soft".
Don't get me wrong... I love Super8 (and I still have my original 8mm revere camera). But I think the fewer hurdles we put up to getting our work distributed, the better. Oddly enough, I don't think this applies to black & white photography. I think the public has gotten used to it for artistic reasons. But does the same apply to Super8?
 
I was going to get exceptional C-mount glass because I just keep seeing ugly lens artifacts in the s8mm footage I watch online, and I assumed it was from those built in cheaper zooms... am I wrong? How is the lens quality on a 1014-xls? I would love an open shutter for some shots.
Thanks to the both of you. You have way more knowledge on camera models than I ever thought you would!
 
cyclone said:
Why do this?
Filmmakers will be interested, but the public will think "contrasty" and "grainy" and "soft".
Don't get me wrong... I love Super8 (and I still have my original 8mm revere camera). But I think the fewer hurdles we put up to getting our work distributed, the better. Oddly enough, I don't think this applies to black & white photography. I think the public has gotten used to it for artistic reasons. But does the same apply to Super8?
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If done properly, and it will, a good scan can make a pretty good image. The grain will be organic and different from noise. Not to mention I'll be taking advantage of deep DoF, and very peculiar attributes really unavailable to be digitally replicated. The film will also look different from the loads and loads of canon 7d night-time stuff out there. I want my work to stand out. So I'm going with a more unique and rare medium. It also fits exactly into the look and aesthetic the director wants. Gritty, documentary style. Super8 will have some grit, but will also have nice DR. The DoF and frame will look similar to old documentaries and new reals with the super8 origin. Perfect. Just perfect! :)

Also, this is the smallest and most sensitive camera option available. I've done mild tests on the DSLR's and have a friend DP who has done indepth ones in my garage studio/greenscreen. He found that the 7D is really around 320iso. I agree. After 320, the noise really begins to appear and it's only because the god awful compression dampens it out, that we can shoot much higher on them.

Kodak VisionIII 500t with a nice exposure, processed and scanned at 2k, (and perhaps not pushed a stop, if I can avoid it... I'm not THAT interested in grain,David :) ) should be superior or at least equal to DSLR's... plus I get the deep DoF I want. No jello, no youtube compression, more or equal latitude, etc. I'd probably NOT be doing this if it wasn't for all the car interiors and other shots that require super tiny cameras. SI-2k is only 200iso, which makes it pretty annoying for night exteriors. Plus it's more expensive than super8 rental, processing and scan. lol.

However, I understand where you are coming from... but... I'll tell you in my experience very good contrasty and grainy images on film will have a higher chance of distribution versus black and white. Most distributors are NOT interested in black and white... neither is the average american. I love black and white, but 'common' people still think of it as a negative unless super stylized like sin-city. (Which has some color).


Pro's:
Small camera
500t Iso/asa Vision III
Organic grain/ Deep DoF
Documentary look
Unique cinematography. Rare to see 8mm.

Cons:
Sound
Not sure where a good lab and transfer is!
Can't shoot a big ratio... maybe 3:1?
 
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The other thing that sets the Beaulieu apart is that it does't use a prism to split light to the viewfinder. It uses an actual mirrored shutter like a 16mm or 35mm camera. That makes the Beaulieus sharper and inherently a stop faster than any other S8 camera. Now, you give some of that back because of the shutter; the most-open shutter angle (L.L. mode on a 6008+) is only 144 degrees, but it's still a lot more sensitive than a typical XL camera with its 220-degree shutter and its prism.

Another nice thing about the Beaulieus is that they have a settable ISO dial that goes from, I think, 25 up to 400. With the new Kodak stocks, the cartridge-notching ISO isn't all that applicable to the old cameras (many of which could only recognize 40 or 160). But Kodak's making a variety of stocks, so settable ISO is quite nice.

If they weren't so darn noisy, the Beaulieus would be the perfect Super8 cameras. But the Canon and the Nizo 6080 are a lot quieter.
 
Hmmm. That is good to know. I am very much in support for a mirror reflex versus a prism. I don't really care much for the ISO dial, however, because I don't use any internal metering, rather I use my light meter.

Thanks so much thus far. I'm doing the test within the next two weeks, I think, so I'm excited to test out pushing the 500t one stop, over exposing and pulling it one stop, and processing normal. Then I'll be testing out different scanning services. Recommendations through this thread could potentially save me money, so go for it!
 
Ryan!

I own both the 1014xls and the Beaulieu 4008zm2 (needs battery) and would love to offer any advice I can.

I really second the recommendation to use Spectra, I've used them for 5 super8 productions and have always been really happy with the transfers.

The 1014xls is an amazing camera with a really sharp lens. The camera can read iso's from (T): 25, 40, 64, 100, 160, 250 and 400 and (D): 16, 25, 40, 64, 100, 160 and 250. And for the weight and design for the camera it's not too bad for handheld use. And I do believe Canon made a body brace for the camera to help out more if you still feel it's not steady enough for you.
 
Yes, the 1014-XLS is has a prism viewing system. The glass on a 1014-XLS is very nice, for what it is, a 20 plus year Super 8 camera.

That notch exposure system for the old cameras is an issue with todays newer stocks. A lot of cameras can't even work with the new staple reversal stock the 64T. Even with settable ISOs, I would want to meter for exposure also. All the top end Super 8 cameras have a manual iris.

My first choice now would be one of the newer Beaulieus, for sure, if you want the interchangeable lenses. What you are going to find on most Beaulieus is an Angenieux or Schneider zoom, which should be very good lenses. I'm not sure what issues you may run into using 16mm c-mount lenses on a Super 8 camera, but that is something you may want to test. It looks like Alan Gordon Enterprises has some 16mm C-mount primes for rent.

http://www.alangordon.com/r_lens.htm#cprimes

Of course, you might be spoiled by those Speed Panchros....
 
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David G. Smith said:
http://www.alangordon.com/r_lens.htm#cprimes

Of course, you might be spoiled by those Speed Panchros....
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Yeah... I probably seem pretty snobby (or crazy) when I have a complete RedOne package and a brand new set of Cooke cine-primes at my disposal and I'm opting to shoot on Super8mm. I just think it 'fits' the story. And I guess that's what always counts.

Right now, I'm really eyeing the Beaulieu over at Pro8mm. It's got the nice 1.53:1 SuperDuper/Max8 frame. It's also got interchangable C-mount glass and the mirror shutter. I'm going to have to squeeze every bit of sharpness I can for this.

Thanks for that link on the c-mount lenses! I'm VERY interested in the [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25mm f/0.95 Angenieux! Sounds sexy... and for 25/day? Nice! I doubt it's very sharp wide open, but that's why testing is so invaluable! I'm surprised it is an Angenieux... sounds more like a Leica to me.
oh well. It's probably got a T-stop of F/1, which is fantastic. I usually go for a T/2.8 on the RedMX 800iso. So a T/1 or perhaps a tad more[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] on 500t is still about two stops greater sensitivity. I may stop that baby down still. Or maybe stop down one stop and over expose a half stop and pull the film to try and gain a thicker negative. (Does that make sense?)

Anyhow, I get super excited when it comes to film. I don't know why, but it's kinda like fishing and eating the catch for dinner. There is a connection with the past that is just really cool. I'm just too young to expect a future in this business that involves celluloid. Sad.


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They call it the Max8 Classic. Looks good, but it's 300/day to rent and a little over 3,000 to buy. Really?! A 10% rental rate? jeez. I'd be better to buy the damn thing, and sell it off again than rent it for a week! That would be like $900/week if they do three-day weeks! lol. I mean, this isn't bad if compared to big packages for thousands a week... but that is for a REDMX with remote follow focus, angeniuex 24-290 zoom, some S4's and etc. This is just for a 8mm camera, I'm kinda shocked. 10% of the value is just crazy... then again, when the camera is that relatively cheap, renting it for $60 a day (%2 value) is def. low.
 
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That's a rebuilt 4008. Not anywhere near as cool as the 7008 they also offer. And while you think it sounds good to buy and then re-sell, consider what real resell value on that might be. I don't know if it would fetch over $1k on ebay.
 
Yeah, I've seen those prices over at the Pro 8mm and they are very expensive. The one thing that is a plus it that at least it should be refurbished, re-worked and come with a warranty. I don't know if that is worth $3 grand, but it does take a lot of the pucker factor out of working with a 30 year old camera (a 4008 Beaulieu). It is better than betting the farm (on a project) with a camera picked up off of eBay.

One piece of advice I can offer is to be real anal about having a clean gate. A piece of hair can end up looking like a tree trunk on that small frame when blown up in transfer.

Also, good luck with the audio. Barry is right, those little f*ckers are noisy.

My hat's off to you for wanting to try flashing the film. That is pretty ballsy. You've been reading ACs from the '70's haven't you? If remember right, didn't Arri have a version called the Lightflex BITD? I think Vilmos Zsigmond was a big fan of that. It developed into the Varicon. If done right, that should give you a latitude kick of (up to at least) a couple of stops, and flatten out the contrast, especially if you are going to push the stock. I will be real interested in seeing your tests on that. You gotta post 'em. I have pushed film before (Underexposure, push processing, print normal), but I have never pulled a stock before. Refresh my memory, over exposure with pull processing, normal printing (in the DI) SHOULD make the the image more saturated, less contrasty and less grainy, correct? That would be very interesting to see.

Going Super 8 is very cool. When I get back to Detroit at the end of this month I want to see if I can get some stuff shot with Super 8 again. I have a guy I used to shot Super 8 (reversal) commercials and promo videos for, and I want to talk him into paying for shooting something with the negative stocks. If I do, I will post some of the stuff. I picked up an Elmo 1012 a few months back, real cheap off of eBay, and I want to give it a good wringing out. I remember when I put together my list of Super 8 cameras to buy, BITD, the 1012 was 3rd on the list of cameras to buy, behind the Beaulieu 5008 (which I bought used, but didn't work out) and the Canon 1014-XLS. I ended up with a great Canon and shot on that. Used Canon 1014-XLS are still being sold in the $500-$1000 range (except at Pro 8mm, but they do have that "Max modification"...."Super Super 8, LOL) , which is pretty interesting since I paid $1300 for one in 1990.

Good luck. Keep us posted.
 
David G. Smith said:
My hat's off to you for wanting to try flashing the film. That is pretty ballsy. You've been reading ACs from the '70's haven't you? If remember right, didn't Arri have a version called the Lightflex BITD? I think Vilmos Zsigmond was a big fan of that. It developed into the Varicon. If done right, that should give you a latitude kick of (up to at least) a couple of stops, and flatten out the contrast, especially if you are going to push the stock. I will be real interested in seeing your tests on that. You gotta post 'em. I have pushed film before (Underexposure, push processing, print normal), but I have never pulled a stock before. Refresh my memory, over exposure with pull processing, normal printing (in the DI) SHOULD make the the image more saturated, less contrasty and less grainy, correct? That would be very interesting to see.
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1281935353.jpg


Yup! Haha, good knowledge! And yes this was discovered and scanned from one of my 1970's american cinematographer magazines! It's a unique system called LightFlex and/or FlexLight. (I think the lightflex is the outward fill light, and the flexlight is the inward to the lens) It emits colored light toward a subject for fill, and/or it can emit the light toward the lens causing shadow areas to be tinted via a type of 'flashing', while leaving skin tones and highlights unaffected.

For my purposes, I'll be (at moments and in controlled intensity) flashing colored LED's into the lens. I don't think the colored fill light outward will be used, but it will be tested so who knows. I'm not very interested in tinting the shadow areas via fill, but rather I am via colored flashing into the lens. More exciting that way. For those who don't know, it's like how a lens flare reduces contrast and lightens the shadow areas of a frame, yet this is without the flare.

Yes I think Vilmos (oops) is a fan, yet funny enough, while I wasn't purposefully researching this, I happened to read Owen Roizman's chapter from "Masters of Light" while I was at the beach today, and the flexlight was brought up. He is apparently not a fan of this process, so I just read today... but he said he had no desire to use it, only from his experience of the demonstration. He said others 'swear by it'. His complaint was it got blacks milky and revealed some extra grain. Grain is not a huge concern for me at this point, and I know the contrast reduction results in milky blacks if done to a certain extent...

However, my goal is to only periodically hit the lens... because I want nice blacks that wash away with a flash of color that reveals some shadow detail and pumps the grain slightly, and then washes away back to the blacks. It will be during certain points of the film. It causes an extra layer of excitement and action to the scene, and the color choices can add an extra psychological imprint. Such as a heated physical altercation in a handheld fashion can be crazy with some minor contrast flashes of red. Ohhhh! I get excited thinking about it. :)

Barry_Green said:
That's a rebuilt 4008. Not anywhere near as cool as the 7008 they also offer. And while you think it sounds good to buy and then re-sell, consider what real resell value on that might be. I don't know if it would fetch over $1k on ebay.
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Yes. You are very right about the resell. I would probably not have done that... but renting for one week that almost equals 30% of the camera's value is also something to be very unhappy with! I'm not sure what the 7008 is, but I'm excited to go look it up. I thought the 4008 was as good as it got.

EDIT: 7008 is amazing! But... I can't find any that are 'super-duper/max 8'... is that a big deal? I understand the implications of aspect ratio, but in terms of resolution, it's about 20% less horizontal resolution. Should this be something I really should care about? It seems like it should, but that kinda ties me to Pro8mm which, at this time, am not enjoying. Does an HD scan of the normal super8 look good. All I can find are examples on youtube... which are 480.

I'd LOVE it if someone out there had an HD still frame from a HD scan from either pro8mm or spectra
 
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So how are you going to do that? Some kind of DIY rig, a ring light in reverse, sort of? I have the feeling that there is a matte box somewhere that is going to have a new life.

When I first started out I tried to do a SFX set up by using a beam splitter in front of the camera. The SFX were lame, but I could see that you could definitely affect the image (contrast and color) with light shown into the beam splitter. Of course it was an awkward and low ball set up, so we never used it. Of course, now, with new technology, you may be on to something.
 
David G. Smith said:
So how are you going to do that? Some kind of DIY rig, a ring light in reverse, sort of? I have the feeling that there is a matte box somewhere that is going to have a new life.

When I first started out I tried to do a SFX set up by using a beam splitter in front of the camera. The SFX were lame, but I could see that you could definitely affect the image (contrast and color) with light shown into the beam splitter. Of course it was an awkward and low ball set up, so we never used it. Of course, now, with new technology, you may be on to something.
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That's a goooooooood question. Thank god for testing! haha. Right now I'm thinking some lights attached to the mattebox. Maybe some colored christmas lights on a squeezer/switch. I can then choose the color by allowing some colors to hit the lens and other not.
 
David G. Smith said:
I have pushed film before (Underexposure, push processing, print normal), but I have never pulled a stock before. Refresh my memory, over exposure with pull processing, normal printing (in the DI) SHOULD make the the image more saturated, less contrasty and less grainy, correct? That would be very interesting to see.
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Summary (Pull Processing):
In a similar analysis, pull processing combined with over exposure of ECN film, produces a noticeable improvement in granularity, a reduction in overall contrast, a slight color bias (yellow shadows and blue highlights) with no perceptible change in sharpness.
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That was from kodak.... I knew everything except the color bias. I've decided, because of money, I'll be doing the following:

1) Test 1 stop over exposed and pulled one stop in processing.
2) Expose normal

In these rolls, I'll be testing the flashes, handheld, steadicam, and handheld with the camera tied to a brick or something heavy, to stop that horrible looking super8mm look with the giggly handheld. I've got to get some mass and momentum into the movement. Makes a smoother picture.

The real test is going to be getting the HD scans back. I'm going to see how acceptable Super8mm is when cropped to 16x9... or I'm playing with the idea of mixed media in the sense of two slightly cropped 1:33 frames that, side-by-side, make one 2.40 frame. I'd need two 1:20 frames. BUT that would require me to shoot almost another 10 min of cut-away footage. City cars, inserts of hands, etc.

The test might be as far as this project goes. I don't see a huge budget right now, so this test needs to knock the socks off for me to really try and push this. Aesthetically speaking, I keep thinking about my RedOne, and something just doesn't feel right about it on this project.

Matty_g said:
A good friend of mine had some trouble with pro8mm too.
went to http://cinelicious.tv/ and got much better service and transfer.

Looking forward to seeing the results Ryan!
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Where have you been Matty?!
 
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