Studio layout advice requested

Thanks again everyone. So if I understand correctly the space lights might work ok for even cyc lighting but everything else will change per project. I hadn't thought of using a laptop to control lights via DMX. That would be better than having a control on the wall. I also saw a guy online using a tablet to adjust.
So maybe I could mount a number of LED spots and just turn on the ones I need, and of course will have to adjust them as needed as well.

I'd love to mount a bunch of RGB so I could color the cyc but that will have to wait. At first I am hoping to be able to put together a stage lighting setup to light the cyc walls and floor quickly and whatever other mounted lights you guys recommend, then I can use my existing lights on stands for talent. That way I can get up and going with something that works and can improve things over time.
Paul, does your black left, green center, white right cause spill issues? If I use space lights do you think I will also need any panel LEDs for the cyc walls?

The space lights I'm looking at are 800watt LED. Bright enough?.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1497845-REG/dracast_drspace8000_800w_space_light.html/specs

I'm trying to figure an estimate for light fixture cost. Maybe 11 space lights? and ? and ?
Another goal I want to accomplish is being able to light a vehicle with a soft source above. Would I use a high power COB light pointing down through the diffuser to do this? Or maybe use space lights in the middle of the stage going through the diffuser?IMG_5675.JPG
 
Your space is quite large isn't it - so your plan for the space lights does to me look viable. Me being me, I'd probably start with a few less and further away and see what kind of blending and duller spots you get - then, if you need more, spend the money then.

Floor mounting lights in your space I suspect you'll get fed up with. After the first few knock overs. In big spaces, you need more height, more height means instability - so the usual solution is more substantial stands - but me personally? I'd prefer grid mounted lights if I possibly could. I have a couple of heavy duty wind up stands that can carry decent headlands and go pretty high - they're useful, but still get in the way. If you end up with a forest of stands, cables and sandbags it makes one falling a certainty. The lights you linked to look up to the job - I assume the white diffuser is a large drop down globe type? There's no picture of it. EDIT - found it on their site - a bag type. One thing they don't mention is fan noise - they ARE fan cooled. How noisy, I don't know. The only drawback is the price.

There is spill from the cloths, but with dedicated back light it's not an issue. The green tinge is well down on the amount of white that also spills onto the people - so for me it's not an issue in my small studio - your big one has far more distance. I'm often too close to be fair, but the keyed in Premiere (ultra) is pretty decent - better than the black magic one by far!

On the DMX front - they make it really hard to find out about the DMX configuration - but it appears to have an antenna - so wireless DMX control is a possibility. However - as you have to cable for power, you can cable for DMX at the same time. Wall controls tend to be 6 or 12 channel, but are usually manual 1:1 patch devices, so really useless. I have a small 6 fader one - fader one is DMX ch1, 2 is 2 etc - this is so restrictive - at best, you need two faders per light, but in your studio - individual control would be perfectly possible, and an old computer and a £70 dongle is so much more useful - especially as they can remember settings. You could have, for repeat work, a fader marked green cycle, more using your picture as an example - marked car front, car side L car side r, car top etc etc - If you add a low level light to light the interior - it gets it's separate fader. Preset wallboxes just cannot cope with that sensible stuff.
 
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Other than lighting the cyc evenly I’d plan on custom lighting every single project. I’m shooting currently all week in a similarly sized studio for like the 8th time and every time I light the space completely different because the project calls for a different look, so I wouldn’t get too hung up on making things too semi-permanent or automated.

Also want to echo Mitch’s green screen sentiments - go portable. Your most recent rendering has the green screen almost in the corner, I am most certain if you need to do a green screen it be much better temporary moving it right into the middle of the studio so you can light it anywhere you’d like with as big of a key or fill as you like. Currently being so close to a wall you are really going to limit yourself with directional lighting capabilities.
 
Thanks again. I'll plan on using a laptop for DMX light control.
And plan to wire DMX and power at the same time.

I don't want a jungle of stands and lights getting knocked over so I need to figure out some lights to grid mount to reduce the # on the floor.

You guys have any suggestions for some lights to mount? I've been looking at various LED spots and a few panels but not sure.
Morgan, the Godox 200 pro is mainly for photography right?
 
Im refering to the godox sl 200w ? https://store.godox.eu/gb/led-lamps/...344210017.html

this is a filming light which when you buy on amazon for around £300uk presents the best lumens per £ available in the UK

it has no dmx, or other frills.. but is bright and cheap. An suilts situations where you just want a bunch light of reasonable quality (like fillng an 8by8 or a white bg)

Those spacelights you linked look pretty good.

I think the godox is a consider if (like me) you have a tight budget.

for example that 'softbox' over the car would probably need 4 or maybe 9 fixtures - I guess and 9 times $400 is 'affordable'

dmx is of course super handy and brings you to a new place if you can program it.

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In 'my world' I light stuff (make it brighter) but as soon as there is a need for flashing, colours, timing, and other effects I would hire a specialist. (https://www.re-production.co.uk/)
 
I'm a rule breaker AND a rule enforcer when it comes to lighting. However - it's certain rules and over the years I know what I like and what I don't so I got in terrible trouble at Anglia TV when I sorted a problem that took just a few minutes but should have been a 3 man crew and a 4 hour call. Never been comfy with union rules like that. Yet I've also held up a production while I sorted a problem out properly - because I hate the phrase "that will do" when it's just wrong and you can see it.

My take on this is that LED is all about the amount of light and very rarely the 'quality'. Without a doubt, my favourite type of light comes from tungsten sources with real glass Fresnel lenses. One is fine, but when you have two, the brightness and softness of the edge of the beam blends perfectly with the next one. I've got an old 1K big Mole, 4 Arri 1Ks and a couple of 650W Arris - I also have some Strand old 2Ks and these all blend together nicely. I borrowed just one LED Arri, and it did the same thing - BUT - I cannot justify the price.

What I do know is that all the LEDs that use COB LEDs with those micro stepped Fresnels are horrible. Those lenses were popular in image projection - as in overhead projectors, but they really are not equivalent in any way to a real glass Fresnel lens. They're in my opinion, halfway between a real Fresnel and a profile (ellipsoidal in US speak). Not a hard edge when you put your hand in the beam like a source 4 , but certainly not remotely soft.

LEDs also spread the light differently so that light linked to is 200W as per the spec and they claim it's equivalent to a 2K? Really? Can you imagine that amount of light output from a tiny aperture - retina singeing - but in practice the spec is flaky - anything with a Bowens mount is a modern version of a photographic light - totally different from our historic studio lighting. I have some similar things and they are just hard and unpleasant. They're not bad lights, but they're just not the right kind of light for typical TV purposes. I know some people use them, but if you walk into British TV studios now, you don't see these kinds of lights. You see spacelights for even, bright large area illumination. You see real glass lenses on Arris for key lights, you see all kinds of LED panels for soft lights, and of course lots of effects lighting - so source 4's with gobos, all manner of LED beams and hard edged effects, and lots of RGBW, RGBWAU wash lights - usually zooms.

I guess I'm talking about traditional lighting that looks like the flattering light we used to have with tungsten keys and soft lights. Too often we have lighting that is just illumination. New sets use bold colours on the floors, walls, even news desks, but lit with soft light panels so the talent can stand wherever needed and be adequately lit. Chris F said it above - you get a new project and your people lights are for that production. So if it means lots of shadows, puddles of light and the presenter standing out, you can do it - but saturation rigs of hundreds of lights are just uneconomic and impractical. With so many productions now using rented studios, everyone starts with a blank canvas - bar fixed lighting that services green or white screens which tend to stay.

Any light that does NOT provide photometric data should be avoided. I couldn't get any of my latest lights to remotely meet the specs. Beam width is often really awfully implanted with the COB/microFresnel - the beam changes drastically between spot and flood, or hardly changes at all.

I did for a while think about swapping out the tungsten sources for those plug in LEDs, but the light was not the same. I really want a few Arri LED Fresnels - the L7-C LE2 would be nice but for me, they're too expensive. Pole operation would be really useful.
 
Fan noise of those linked space lights is a concern. 10 of those may make enough noise to be a problem...don't know and not sure how to find out short of buying one to see. I really want spacelights for the large even stage lighting.

Wouldn't some Godox 200s be useful for shining through an 8X8 diffuser and maybe shooting straight down through through a diffuser onto a car below? They certainly are affordable.

I like tungsten skin tones best and the tungsten Mole Rich. spacelights are much cheaper to buy than LED, but not possible for me due to heat and power. I also do not see using tungsten for key, fill and backlights either in my case - do you guys agree?

I've never lit projects in a studio with a grid. I've alway been on-location. So knowing what lights to rig up above to minimize gear on the floor is a new thing for me. If the grid is 18' from the floor it seems some lights won't have the output and some work better than others
 
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The thing with using diffusers is they also reduce the light. Using lights with not that wide beam angles means if you try to light say the 8x8 diffuser - it will be puddles of light, not an evenly lit white cloth.

One real adjustable LED with Fresnel lens is a really useful light. COB things need moving so much. Distance as well as pan and tilt. If they won't go wide enough - they have to go further away. That's how it is. I bought a Chinese Arri look alike Fresnel. Beam adjustment is terrible, brightness is poor as soon as it's not on spot and it just doesn't work as a key. For your space, if you can get two real Arri 7's that would be most useful. The real snag for you is that you don't know what you will need until you get some bookings. I have loads of moving head LED stock for live events. So far since March, no client has needed them in the studio, and it's all been talking heads (and really boring). Investing in lots of equipment before you know what you need is tricky!
 
That makes sense about the diffusers and puddles and having to move due to lack of width. Thanks again.
Right I don't know what I will need for projects yet so it's tricky and possibly wasteful to try to pre-equip too much.
I'm just trying to total a budget needed to get this building project up and running but some of this gear will have to wait I see.
Are you talking about Arri L7-C, like this?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...d_fresnel.html
 
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Yep, that is what I really want, but the cost is just too much. I suppose if you have a rental house near you - you could just put in the cycle washes and hire the rest?
 
ahh thanks. A couple of those would be very nice. But expensive. Rental options are limited. 1 place an hour away but they don't have those listed. Another place 4 hours away.
I'm going to look and see if maybe there is something cheaper that might suffice but as you said the cheaper ones may all be too much a compromise and not very good.
Maybe as you said, wash the cyc now and then figure out the rest as needed
 
People. I think there will be a requirement for an absolute minimum of nine lights (prbably 3x that) for simplicity let us call it 10.

10 godox = $4000 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...l?sts=pi&pim=Y
10 skypanels $66000 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...softlight.html
10 prolycht = $21000 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...rch=yes&sts=ps

4k vs 66k is big deal

sure something like a skypanel can do all sorts of amazing colours and flashing - there is no comparison if used properly
skypanels flashing..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj1C7smGGzE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIJ3W7J8bfc

but for just making a cove white its a big cost hike.

i guess any bowens led would be fired into an 8.8 (or bigger) or used with..
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...48_bowens.html
or domes.

to not buy one godox just as a test is nuts!
 
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You are comparing chalk and cheese - these are not remotely the same thing. If you go to a small photographers type studio, you see these things on stands, with gizmos plugged in to modify them and try to make them do things they aren't really much good for.

In a medium sized studio where distance from light to subject is more than say 4m/12' then these types of light just don't cut it. You do not see them in hire facilities - they have pantographs, real Fresnels and big flat panels. LED is a fine source now - but COB LED is a strange way to generate light - the on board chips have a fixed angle, and need no reflectors. The micro Fresnel lenses allow a bit of beam angle adjustment, but they just don't blend. If you have one key source they are fine really - quite nice face light, with good, and perhaps even too hard modelling to the nose, eyebrows etc. But they're narrow, or glow worms when set to 'wide', which is never really wide. So two people and it's two lights, and then they can't walk or move towards each other without going dark. I'lll happily use them for an on-location interview but you have a BIG studio space and they're just variations on a theme.

Key lights need to be:
Bright
Remotely dimmable (not a remote that make them all change - DMX)
Easily rigged and focussed
Have a wide range of beam angles - half peak angles of at least 10 degrees on spot and 50 degrees on wide. If they can't do this, you have to keep moving them.
Barn doors - essential to stop light hitting things you don't want.

Softlights need to be:
Wide - 90 degrees at least
Big - wide is probably more important than height
Remotely dimmable as above
Easily rigged and focussed.

The price for some of these is prohibitive if you need a few - madness, when you're a startup.

With even modest ones nearly 2 grand I think maybe a cheaper source and some testing might be good. Have you considered buying a few different cheaper Chinese ones and seeing how they work for you. I'm not getting into the Chinese subject re: imports, but I have been sourcing them for over ten years now for my hire stock, and the tales of doom and gloom have been totally wrong.

I have had some that have failed after five or six years - power supplies, but they've earned their keep - were paid for long ago and with the current show rig having over 35 in operation, the faulty pile has just 5 in it, and I'm using them for spares in the future. Some have been really excellent, others a bit niche - they do effects and things that I tired of quickly, but the washes and beams are bright and decent. I have had for the studio ten or so soft light panels. I'm not so happy with some. They're all very similar but the bi colour ones have half the LEDs in 3600, and the others in 5600 (which appears to be actually, slightly lower than that - between 5K and 5.6K to my eye comparing them to others. This means that when set to 5600, they are dimmer than the single colour 5600s which have double the number of 5600 LEDs - so I wish I had sacrificed bi-colour. If I ever need lower CT, I've got some CT somewhere. They're tough enough, although a bit plasticky in some areas. One of the ten has failed - the 3200 led have died - so that's a power supply issue I suspect. However - my attitude to Chinese lights is simple - if you need 4, buy 6 (keep them for spares, or use them) and if you need ten buy twelve. This has always worked for me. You hear tales of quality control - but I hire the big name moving lights - Robe and Martin and they are just as unreliable. Some of the clever ones come with spares, and I've always needed to use them!

I'll see if I can dig up any Fresnel lensed examples that I would consider with my money for hanging from a studio grid. I do know the long boxes with a COB on the front would not be on my list.

Heres some bi colour and RGB (not ideal) to give an idea. plus a variable zoom wide angle Fresnel with auto or manual zoom

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...b-54&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000015870582746"}


Then this one

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...&terminal_id=65ad80abd2184a8aa6f47677a89f8fc9

This one
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...&terminal_id=65ad80abd2184a8aa6f47677a89f8fc9

and this
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...2-26&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000021552816900"}
 
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We will have to agree to disagree.

Fresnels dont really have place - no one doing lighting wants hard light - its not 1995.

Yes - of course - I have 2 lupo 200w hard led fresnels, which often do some rim lighting and some dedo lights (of course a studio would have all of this stuff in the cupboard) - a bit of a backlit beam - some smoke, its cool on a dark background - but it is not the bread and butter.
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByNPz-GA..._web_copy_link

but a white cove .. basically some lights with china balls, softboexs or into a grid (or astras .. kinos) or into a 8.8 (12.12 20.20)

like those 800w dracast into a big 'coke can' (space light?) - dont know the actual name - seem on message.

this is IMO the norm.. https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1ZjvBK...umbo-light.jpg
 
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studio lights 2.jpg studio lights 1.jpg For the space lighting I don't disagree, but walk into any TV studio here that is on the hire lists, and the staple light sources for people - not the cyc, are Fresnels and soft lights. All my friends who do single camera work on location have a bag with Dedos and similar - but not in the studio - it's a production space. You see Fresnels, pantographs, panels and coloured stuff. White or green cyc lights like the spacelights you linked to do the floors and walls - but the people need lighting that is brighter than the spacelights, or they're just silhouettes. Dinky lights won't cut it hung from the grid 4 or 5m from the subject.

Where do you get the idea nobody wants hard light? Tell Arri who are selling their crazily priced hard lights in numbers! The US and British broadcasters use them every single day. Key, fill and backlight is still the most popular TV lighting technique there is. Those who just blast the set and the talent with soft light are taking the easy way out, and producing lovely soft, boring images.
 
I found this picture - taken just before lockdown - so a current show. I was working on this one and I think the Lighting Designer did a good job - and Fresnels do all the talent lighting, and quite a bit of the set lighting too - and you cannot see the joins between them. Everything focussed properly, and there are proper modelling shadows on the guests and presenter. leaguesmall.jpg
 
You are not wrong in analysis of these pics. I do respect the lighting feats on 'x factor' or whatever saturday night popular television that I dont watch. Clearly the shows demnstrate extreme competence.

But I think they are 1995 TV in appearance and not a look of a commercial studio.

Those double shadows on the grass.. if it were my show id fire the lighting team .. its terrible

even post 177 the lights rigs are not going to make any nice visuals just a chaos of multi shadow

I even hate it when there are hard chin shadows on current afairs. its just that '5 redheads on the roof' look from 1992.

of course back then maybe a studio camera was 20ISO so you needed grunt like a heap of 10k lights (cp commented on that when trying to recreate the disco fitness look for key and peele using cameras of the time)

my vision of a commercial studio is basically for shooting product, infomercials and greenscreen where the focus is on the subject not the place - in that situation I feel soft light with odd hard backlight is most common

if you watch meet the gaffer nearly all the setups key with an m18 into an 8.8

im advocating 4 200 cobs into an 8.8 as a good version for a poor man!
 
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