sticky focus ring in cold weather

[DM_rider]

DM: Did you ever send your camera in to Panasonic like Jan suggested?

Infuriating to me that they would stand by the corporate veil and whip out a bs corporate line like that..

I mean we're not even talking about extreme arctic shooting here! Some guy mentioned noticeable stickiness in the low 50s! Not very hard to reproduce.

I mean the HMC is a great camera, and Panny should get props for putting good features and image quality in a sensibly priced package. However, they should get huge criticism for failing to deliver such a fundamental feature... especially if the marketed appeal of the solid-state cam being that it can be used in extreme conditions not suitable for tape-based cams.. arghh.

Yes, I sent it to Panasonic and I believe Jan even tested it herself.

I don't know what Panasonic can do at this point other than own up to this problem and fix it in their future models.

I would really like Panasonic to fix this issue and offer a repair under warranty, but I feel the chances of that happening are slim to none this late in the game. I presented this issue very early on but it was pretty much overlooked and forgotten. I don't understand how the Panasonic engineers don't recognize this as an issue, it's a bit underwhelming.

 

[booggerg2]

Yes, I sent it to Panasonic and I believe Jan even tested it herself.

I don't know what Panasonic can do at this point other than own up to this problem and fix it in their future models.

I would really like Panasonic to fix this issue and offer a repair under warranty, but I feel the chances of that happening are slim to none this late in the game. I presented this issue very early on but it was pretty much overlooked and forgotten. I don't understand how the Panasonic engineers don't recognize this as an issue, it's a bit underwhelming.

Well let's bring the issue back to the discussion again!

What did they find with your camera? Unable to reproduce issue?

I was doing crappy test shots and found the stickyness hindering my test shots.. Imagine how pissed we would be if it was during a real gig!?

I found the ring to turn reasonably smooth after getting over the hump to get the ring engaged.. perhaps it's an issue with lubrication?

 

[DM_rider]

Well let's bring the issue back to the discussion again!

What did they find with your camera? Unable to reproduce issue?

I was doing crappy test shots and found the stickyness hindering my test shots.. Imagine how pissed we would be if it was during a real gig!?

I found the ring to turn reasonably smooth after getting over the hump to get the ring engaged.. perhaps it's an issue with lubrication?

I'm all for it, it should be addressed.

I think it's the lube settling and thickening up. Once the ring gets unstuck, it turns very smooth, just a bit thicker feeling, which I am ok with. It's that initial stick that can really make things tough when shooting, and that is what needs to be addressed, the stick!

I was shooting in -45 below weather this winter and the focus ring was unusable. I could hardly even move it, I felt a little uneasy trying to move it.

 

[booggerg2]

I'm all for it, it should be addressed.

I think it's the lube settling and thickening up. Once the ring gets unstuck, it turns very smooth, just a bit thicker feeling, which I am ok with. It's that initial stick that can really make things tough when shooting, and that is what needs to be addressed, the stick!

I was shooting in -45 below weather this winter and the focus ring was unusable. I could hardly even move it, I felt a little uneasy trying to move it.

It's the initial start and when you slow to a stop when you approach your focus point, but instead of slowly stopping, the thick lube acts like a disc brake and the focus pull abruptly comes to a stop before reaching my desired focus end point. In 32deg with broad sunlight..

Wait, did I really read a post by Jan suggesting to wrap hand warmers around the focus ring? Amazing...
Hmm now where was that post?

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Guys,

I am sorry but the focus ring does not act like it normally does when it is warm. This is a fact. The lubrication becomes thick when it is cold, this too is a fact. We sent the HPX170s to the Iditarod this year to shoot with the guys that shoot in cold weather, and we are talking very cold here. There were points that the focus ring wouldn't move at all, but that proved to be true on the HPX500s as well. Lubrications become thick and there is no way around it.

Sorry,

Jan

 

[booggerg2]

Hi Jan,

Thanks for confirming the lub freezing up. However, myself and I'm sure many other folks are more concerned about the inability to smoothly move the ring at much higher temperatures than what was experienced for the Iditarod shoot... Such as the stiff focus ring indicated in this video.. http://blip.tv/file/1527481?filename=Horner218-stickyFocusRing435.mov

My 6 year old DVX, which I've just sold and replaced with the HMC never experienced the same stickiness which I've experienced with the HMC. Others have also confirmed that the same stickiness does not exist with the HVX as well.. Can't the lubrication on the new cameras be replaced with the lub used on the DVX and HVX? Please don't leave us owners in the dust.. The DVX has made me a loyal Panasonic user, and I went with the HMC largely due to my past experience with the DVX..

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

The feedback that I got from the factory on this issue was that the lubrication they are using is virtually the same. Unfortunately your clip did not show the video from the camera. Yes the focus will feel stiff, no question, it should.

We brought in DMRider's camera for evaluation a while back and put it in the freezer overnight with an HVX200. While both were stiff to the touch the next morning they felt virtually the same.

Best,

Jan

 

[booggerg2]

The feedback that I got from the factory on this issue was that the lubrication they are using is virtually the same. Unfortunately your clip did not show the video from the camera. Yes the focus will feel stiff, no question, it should.

I didn't put up the video showing the stiff focus ring on the 170 in winter weather.. however it clearly demonstrates how difficult it was to engage the focus ring, and in the case of the video, the shooter would have a very difficult time of focusing while sliding along the dolly.

We brought in DMRider's camera for evaluation a while back and put it in the freezer overnight with an HVX200. While both were stiff to the touch the next morning they felt virtually the same.

I think it's unrealistic to expect the lubrication in the camera to never get thick regardless of temperature conditions. In the case of putting the camera in the freezer overnight - I think the condition of that test is so extreme that it would surpass the cold weather performance limits of the lub in both cameras so it's possible that both would be stiff. However, a less strenuous test of taking a room-temperature 170 or 150 out in freezing or near freezing temperature and you will quickly experience stickiness in the focus ring that will not exist with the DVX/HVX. In other word, the specs of the lube on the 170/150 are have much weaker low temperature performance than the lube on the DVX/HVX...

The question now is, why is that lube selected for use in these solid-state machines designed for durability and challenging conditions? If it couldn't handle near freezing temps on my driveway, it's no suprise that it couldn't handle the Idiotarod.. Can't the lube be changed out under warranty after realizing this inherient performance deficiency? Thanks.

 

[dcloud]

I guess external focus remote would be the only solution?

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

However, a less strenuous test of taking a room-temperature 170 or 150 out in freezing or near freezing temperature and you will quickly experience stickiness in the focus ring that will not exist with the DVX/HVX. In other word, the specs of the lube on the 170/150 are have much weaker low temperature performance than the lube on the DVX/HVX...

I think to take a camera out and shoot with it before it is acclimatized to the shooting scenario is unrealistic. It used to be that you had to do this or the tapes would stick to the heads. Give the camera a proper cooling off before proceeding.

The question now is, why is that lube selected for use in these solid-state machines designed for durability and challenging conditions? If it couldn't handle near freezing temps on my driveway, it's no suprise that it couldn't handle the Idiotarod..

It handled the Iditarod. Sorry if that was not clear. There was point where even the $20,000 lenses became fixed focal lentgth focused on infinty lenses. This has happened with every camera we have sent there and they have rented. It is just very cold, this year it got down to -50 or so.

Can't the lube be changed out under warranty after realizing this inherient performance deficiency? Thanks.

I believe it is sealed and cannot be changed.

 

[booggerg2]

I think to take a camera out and shoot with it before it is acclimatized to the shooting scenario is unrealistic. It used to be that you had to do this or the tapes would stick to the heads. Give the camera a proper cooling off before proceeding.

Tape sticking to the head? I've never experienced that in the conditions which I've filmed in. Jan, just to be clear, I'm not talking about -40 North Pole type temperatures... I'm talking about performance deficiencies experienced at near freezing point (and some have pointed out stickiness at much higher temperatures than that). I don't think any manufacture has a disclaimer which recommends proper cooling down of camera before shooting in temperatures around the freezing point. I think we're all reasonable people here, if I'm shooting in -40 temperatures, I'll be realistic about what to expect with regards to a moving component of my camera...

Just to be clear - Are you saying to let the gear acclimate to the cool environment with the goal of the lube thickness becoming consistent such that there isn't the large difference between the force it takes to engage the ring from stand-still vs the significantly less force it takes to turn the ring after it has engaged?

I'm sure Panasonic acknowledges a significant percentage of their customer base are event shooters who by the nature of their work shoot run n' gun in diverse conditions. We do not have the luxury of allowing gear to acclimate to a certain environment. In my situation, the focus ring gummed up within 5 minutes of being in 32F temperature. I can definitely see my self transitioning between room and freezing temperatures while covering any given event, there is simply no time to allow gear to cool down. Can Panasonic offer a better workaround/suggestion on this crucial issue?

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Are you saying to let the gear acclimate to the cool environment so the lube thickness is consistent such that there isn't the large difference between the force it takes to engage the ring from stand-still vs the significantly less force it takes to turn the ring after it has engaged?

I am saying that if the camera is cooled then the difference will be more consistant than going from a wam camera to one that is cooling and eventually cold.

I'm sure Panasonic acknowledges a significant percentage of their customer base are event shooters who by the nature of their work, do not have the luxury of allowing gear to acclimate to a certain environment. In my situation, the focus ring gummed up within 5 minutes of being in 32F temperature, I can definitely see my self transitioning between room temperature and freezing temperatures while covering any given event, there is simply no time to allow gear to cool down. Can Panasonic offer a better workaround/suggestion on this crucial issue?

You need to figure out how to allow the camera to cool or warm. Since the recording is no longer the concern it is the rest of the mechanisms that show an issue going from one arena to the next. There is not a better work around, nor is there a different work-around, it is the work-with. It is just something that you have to put into the timetable. And as far as event shooters not having the luxury of time for planning, I am not sure I totally buy into that as I know a lot of event shooters and this is in their planning; I spent 15 years in Washington, D.C. where it was always hot an humid in the summer and to ignore this was not well advised.

I had a customer with a DVX that landed in Cuba, and she started to shoot within 20 minutes of taking her camera out of the nice air-condintion cabin. It was nice steamy 90 degrees. The tape got stuck in the transport, fortunately after brining it back inside and having the camera get air-conditioned, it released the tape. She then proceded to clean the tape path. Before she started to shot again she set her camera out on the balcony for an hour or so.

Acclimatizing is an important step.

Best,

Jan

 

[booggerg2]

You need to figure out how to allow the camera to cool or warm. Since the recording is no longer the concern it is the rest of the mechanisms that show an issue going from one arena to the next. There is not a better work around, nor is there a different work-around, it is the work-with. It is just something that you have to put into the timetable. And as far as event shooters not having the luxury of time for planning, I am not sure I totally buy into that as I know a lot of event shooters and this is in their planning; I spent 15 years in Washington, D.C. where it was always hot an humid in the summer and to ignore this was not well advised.

I had a customer with a DVX that landed in Cuba, and she started to shoot within 20 minutes of taking her camera out of the nice air-condintion cabin. It was nice steamy 90 degrees. The tape got stuck in the transport, fortunately after brining it back inside and having the camera get air-conditioned, it released the tape. She then proceded to clean the tape path. Before she started to shot again she set her camera out on the balcony for an hour or so.

I can certainly see challenges of condensation when going from a cool + dry environment to a hot & humid one... Unless I'm totally clueless here, I don't see any challenges posed to the equipment when going from room temperature, to a dry, sunny 32deg outdoor environment - that is, short of a poorly concocted lube with performance that goes against all of our experiences with other cameras we've owned.

Reading your words, it sounds like you're suggestion these acclimation procedures are fundamental procedures that comes with the territory, and that we should expect such performance degradations when shooting in the cold. I disagree with that assertion because if that's the case, there wouldn't be so many posts reporting rings sticking in situations that we didn't expect them to stick. Many of us have previous generation Panasonic gears that do not exhibit the same performance degradations under the same shooting scenarios. This is an obvious a case of design evolution that resulted in worse end-result. I really do not see any other explanations for it.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

I can certainly see challenges of condensation when going from a cool + dry environment to a hot & humid one... Unless I'm totally clueless here, I don't see any challenges posed to the equipment when going from room temperature, to a dry, sunny 32deg outdoor environment - that is, short of a poorly concocted lube with performance that goes against all of our experiences with other cameras we've owned.

One of the changes is that the lubrication will cool and have a different viscosity, and the lenses may fog depending on the differences in air temp and relative humidity. That fogging can happen going from hot to cold or cold to hot. The lubrication in the HPX170 and the HVx200 are virtually the same. It is not a poorly concocted lubrication.

Reading your words, it sounds like you're suggestion these acclimation procedures are fundamental procedures that comes with the territory, and that we should expect such performance degradations when shooting in the cold.

I would phrase that performance differences, in either Cold or Hot, and yes I am saying that you should, as a matter of practice acclimatize the product.

I disagree with that assertion because if that's the case, there wouldn't be so many posts reporting rings sticking in situations that we didn't expect them to stick. Many of us have previous generation Panasonic gears that do not exhibit the same performance degradations under the same shooting scenarios

I go through my share of these types of posts, and frankly they all seem to start at the beginning of a product cycle when people are getting used to the product. I have seen it on all of the cameras htat have been mentioned in this thread and a good number of others as well.

Best,

Jan

 

[booggerg2]

I go through my share of these types of posts, and frankly they all seem to start at the beginning of a product cycle when people are getting used to the product. I have seen it on all of the cameras htat have been mentioned in this thread and a good number of others as well.

Well I certainly will agree that a great deal of questions are asked about a brand new product. Such as, "What is that clicking sound?".

However, this issue is not a question about a unique feature of these new generations of solid-state cams.. The performance degradation of the focus ring in the cold on these new breed of Panasonic cams is akin to if Ford came out with a new Mustang that is superb with the only exception of the disclaimer that says "Oh yeah, anytime the temp drops below 45, you'll need a block heater so the vehicle can start properly. Sorry it's just part of the vehicle design, you should get used to it."

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Actually I have given this same advise for cmaeras for the last thirty years. In fact I have actually followed it myself on those rare occasions in my life where I actually wanted to shoot something in the cold, or the hot. It is not news it is the same.

Best,

Jan

 

[booggerg2]

Actually I have given this same advise for cmaeras for the last thirty years. In fact I have actually followed it myself on those rare occasions in my life where I actually wanted to shoot something in the cold, or the hot. It is not news it is the same.

Best,

Jan

Well I anticipate the next generation of cameras Panasonic comes out with will have the cold focus ring gumming issue resolved, just like how the zoom ring on the original DVX wasn't dampened like every camera that existed before the DVX, and how the subsequent refresh of the DVX fixed the issue by putting proper dampening on the zoom ring. So no, I don't believe every decision Panasonic makes on its product is a correct reflection of what the customer base wants or expects. I fully expect screw-ups and "oopses" along the way.. I guess I'll just have to deal with this issue just like how I dealt with the DVX's loose zoom ring, because the rest of the camere seems to be superb so far.

If I may quote your reply to this issue on page 1 of this thread:

Hi DM Rider,

Please contact me via PM, I want to see your camera. There is no reason for this experience. So the engineers want to see your camera. I will pay for shipping both ways

Thanks,

Jan

It just seems to me that Panasonic does not expect this behavior to be the norm, but after realizing the issue and the effort it would take to fix already sold units and redesign of future units, they've resorted to the "working as designed" corporate answer, which really sucks for us the end-user.

 

[DM_rider]

I will get an HVX, DVX, and HPX tonight, put them all in a freezer, then test all the focus rings side by side so that we can be 100% certain that this stick in the 170 is in fact happening. I shouldn't have to do this, but there are no other options right now because I feel like we are having a hard time proving our point and getting a good answer to the issue...

 

[booggerg2]

DM: In the case that the freezer scenario being too harsh for a 3 cameras, can you also put it in the refrigerator? I think that's kept at a temperature slightly above freezing...?

 

[DM_rider]

DM: In the case that the freezer scenario being too harsh for a 3 cameras, can you also put it in the refrigerator? I think that's kept at a temperature slightly above freezing...?

I will do both.