sticky focus ring in cold weather

[booggerg2]

Thanks for the test Barry. I sold my DVX so it is no longer here to compare with. However I think you test confirmed my claim that I have NEVER experienced issues with using the DVX in the cold. I actually did a search on this forum and there were ZERO posts about the DVX's focus ring sticking in the cold. I just assumed lubrication is no longer considered a nose bleed technology and the lube used in these cameras nowadays are more than sufficient for shooting in anything other than extreme arctic conditions. A downgrade in lubrication performance would be the last thing on anyone's mind. Maybe Panasonic thought too lightly of lubrication and simply over looked it in design? It would be pretty difficult to believe that the product managers desired for these new models to have degraded focus ring performance.

What really bugs me about the HMC is that on my unit (and many others' here) the large amount of force it takes to get the ring going is disaproportional to the force it takes to spin the ring after it has engaged. If the ring was stiff consistently, I can work with that and just apply consistently higher pressure when the lube thickens up. However, it is VERY difficult to be focusing when the focus "jumps" due to higher amount of force it takes to get it going.

You mentioned that once the ring started going, the focus was relatively smooth. However, once you slow down to approach a focus point, the ring would come to an abrupt stop due to the thicker lube, instead of stopping gracefully and smoothly. And once you stop, you have to deal with the sticky stand-still ring issue again..

 

[Barry_Green]

I don't know what changed, but the DVX was like it was immune from the cold.

With the 150 and 200A, starting the focus process does take some effort to get the ring un-stuck. After that it works. It's not a consistent amount of effort at all times, it definitely takes some effort to get it started.

Sometimes things get all better, sometimes they take a step backwards. The V1U has no infrared problem, the EX1 has significant IR problems. The HMC150 gives you expanded focus while recording, and the HPX300 doesn't. The PDW-700 gives you 2/3" chips and 4:2:2 50mbps recording, but takes away 24p. For some reason, we never seem to get anything that's "better" in all ways. Sometimes they insist on taking steps back.

Probably not what anyone wants to hear, but maybe a Foxi would work for smooth focus in the cold? Sorry guys, I don't have any actual answers here, just trying to figure out some way to keep you up and running...

 

[booggerg2]

I don't know what changed, but the DVX was like it was immune from the cold.

Sometimes things get all better, sometimes they take a step backwards. The V1U has no infrared problem, the EX1 has significant IR problems. The HMC150 gives you expanded focus while recording, and the HPX300 doesn't. The PDW-700 gives you 2/3" chips and 4:2:2 50mbps recording, but takes away 24p. For some reason, we never seem to get anything that's "better" in all ways. Sometimes they insist on taking steps back.

No doubt, when dealing with still evolving technology like image sensors, the IR filtration could change from sensor to sensor. In the case of the EX1, the weak IR filter is almost certainly has to do with the size of the sensor and the FOV of coverage it was designed for..

In the case of a relatively simpler focus ring mechanism.. it boggles the mind to imagine how they could have gotten such a fundamental and basic functionality of the camera downright wrong. It's just a wheel that spins, and we want + expect it to spin as well as the wheel you developed 6 years ago in the DVX.

The question now is why not fess up and fix it? This would go a long way in building up brand value and loyalty.. Things in this industry will get very interesting from here on out. Panasonic used to dominate the prosumer market with unique features like 24P and cine-gamma. Not so much anymore.. The HMC is an attractive offering currently because of the recording media.. Soon it too will loose that uniqueness. Then what will Panasonic have going for itself? I guess having a blatant mechanical design flaw in its camera and not fixing it and having pissed off customers is the route they are willing to take.

 

[DM_rider]

All I know is that I had an HVX200 and an HPX170 side by side, in the freezer and the HVX200 focus ring turned very smoothly, and I had to unstick the HPX170. I shoot in cold weather A LOT, and I have noticed this all winter, I know what I am seeing and I know that it isn't happening with the HVX200 I was using.

If this is a camera to camera issue, then that's a bit odd in my opinion.

This doesn't happen with the HVX and DVX and I would like to know why. I was told that they should behave the same as the HPX, not true at all in my case. The fact that I was told that everything functioned properly made me lose some faith in Panasonic. If you let the ring sit un turned for about 3 seconds, it sticks up again.

This is going to go nowhere, Panasonic will not admit that there is an issue, and that's understandable, they simply can't.

It was about 15f degrees out when I shot the following clips. I have never had an HVX focus ring behave like this, ever. You shouldn't have to use this much extra force to unstick the ring. I'm pushing the camera along my slider... this would not happen with an HVX. When you put any force on the focus ring, it should start to turn smoothly, not jarringly like it does on the HPX. If this video doesn't prove my point, then I give up, I don't know how I can demonstrate the issue more simply.
http://a1.video.blip.tv/0990006412415/Horner218-stickyFocusRing435.mov

 

[monday1313]

Any thought as to the fact that one is 82 mm and the other is 72mm? Might that cause a difference in the way they feel?

It's not a question of "feel".

It straight up doesn't work. if the temperature is near freezing or below, the ring starts to stick on the HPX.

By stick I mean it is -impossible- for you to move the focus ring smoothly.

Which means that as a tool for someone to make a living with. It is fundamentally flawed. A Plumber can't use a pipe wrench that doesn't grip the pipe consistently. A Musician can't use an instrument that doesn't stay in tune for more than 3 or four notes. An Athlete can't use shoes that don't stay tied when running in a certain direction.

 

[booggerg2]

I'll just a shoot a season of weddings with the HMC, get my money's worth out of it and be done with this crap. Hopefully, Canon will announce their solid state version of the XHA1 at NAB..

 

[Carlos Corral]

I'll just a shoot a season of weddings with the HMC, get my money's worth out of it and be done with this crap. Hopefully, Canon will announce their solid state version of the XHA1 at NAB..

2010? Canon is pretty slow at flowing the trend.

 

[booggerg2]

2010? Canon is pretty slow at flowing the trend.

Well i meant this year's NAB.. will stick with the HMC until the end of the current wedding season.. that is unless something VERY enticing comes out in calendar year 09.. If Panasonic decides to take care of us loyal customers and offer to repair our cameras under warranty to restore it to full working condition, then I'll become a Panasonic fanboy.

 

[booggerg2]

Actually I have given this same advise for cmaeras for the last thirty years. In fact I have actually followed it myself on those rare occasions in my life where I actually wanted to shoot something in the cold, or the hot. It is not news it is the same.

Best,

Jan

I go through my share of these types of posts, and frankly they all seem to start at the beginning of a product cycle when people are getting used to the product. I have seen it on all of the cameras htat have been mentioned in this thread and a good number of others as well.

Best,

Jan

Hey Jan, I'm really curious.. what is your thought after Barry has put in his thorough testing and confirmed what we are saying - that the old DVX's lens lube is not susceptible to sticking in freezing temperature as the new HPX is.. Obviously acclimation was not needed in the case of the DVX's focus ring. I guess we weren't that crazy and were not asking newbie questions.. :dankk2:

Regards,

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hey Jan, I'm really curious.. what is your thought after Barry has put in his thorough testing and confirmed what we are saying - that the old DVX's lens lube is not susceptible to sticking in freezing temperature as the new HPX is.. Obviously acclimation was not needed in the case of the DVX's focus ring. I guess we weren't that crazy and were not asking newbie questions.. :dankk2:

The DVX has a much different lens, it is a Standard Definition lens, and different design. I have been comparing in my mind and in all of my posts the HVX200 and the HPX170. These two are more similar, althought the barrel size is obviously bigger on the HVX200. Would I expect a difference with the DVX?, hadn't given it a thought.

Best,

Jan

 

[DM_rider]

It's obvious that our claims are going un-touched... I understand that Panasonic has to protect the brand name, it's just a shame that it has to be like this. The least Panasonic can do is put some more R and D into cold weather shooting, because I feel like they dropped the ball on the 170... Then hopefully, future cameras focus rings will behave like the HVX200 does in cold weather, properly.

This is such a letdown, because we got the whole "Shock Mount" spiel before the company recognized the lens wobble as a big issue and warrantied it. Unfortunately, I highly doubt this will happen with the focus ring because there aren't enough cold weather shooters out there to raise the issue. I bet if every 170 owner was complaining about this, the issue would be solved right away.

Maybe, just maybe this issue will be addressed seriously and Panasonic will make it right, but I'm not holding my breath. The cold weather shooters don't have the numbers to make a difference at this point in time and I don't believe all the warm climate shooters can appreciate this issue or understand what it means to shoot in cold weather because they don't have to deal with it. Until you have shot with an HVX and an HPX170 in below zero temps and can compare how they function, you wont understand the problem at hand.

Me, and a handful of others sure would appreciate a valid response. Otherwise, I will think long and hard before buying Panasonic again. The chances to correct this are slowly fading.

I feel like I am being treated like some dumb f*ck who doesn't know what the hell he is doing with a camera... I'm starting to get incredibly frustrated about this. I'll start posting private messages and conversations if I have to as well.

THE HVX200 DOES NOT DO THIS IN COLD WEATHER. The ring is supposed to be free moving, is it not? Do I have to fly to the Panasonic facilities to explain this and demonstrate?

I feel like I was lied to when I was told that the HPX and HVX behaved the same out of the freezer. Because when I put them in the freezer, they sure as hell did not behave the same. The HVX ring functioned great, the HPX ring did not. And again, I will post this example. Show me an HVX200 that does this and I will shut up, because I haven't seen it yet.
http://a1.video.blip.tv/0990006412415/Horner218-stickyFocusRing435.mov

 

[booggerg2]

The DVX has a much different lens, it is a Standard Definition lens, and different design. I have been comparing in my mind and in all of my posts the HVX200 and the HPX170. These two are more similar, althought the barrel size is obviously bigger on the HVX200. Would I expect a difference with the DVX?, hadn't given it a thought.

Best,

Jan

Jan are you saying Panasonic's technical aptitude has diminished? In a situation that the DVX could handle with ease, the newer panasonics, HPX170/HVX200A/HPX300 none can!? If you haven't given it a thought, can you please do some more digging on behalf of Panasonic customers who are suffering this problem with Panasonic cameras? Can you ask your technicians why the DVX do not have problems in the cold but the new Panasonic cameras all do? Thanks.

 

[DM_rider]

ahem...

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Jan are you saying Panasonic's technical aptitude has diminished? QUOTE]

No I am saying that it is a different lens with a differnet design. I will ask the question but know that the DVX100 lens is NOT the same as an HVX200 lens nor an HPX170 lens.

That is all I am saying.

Thnaks,

Jan

 

[DM_rider]

Jan are you saying Panasonic's technical aptitude has diminished? QUOTE]

No I am saying that it is a different lens with a differnet design. I will ask the question but know that the DVX100 lens is NOT the same as an HVX200 lens nor an HPX170 lens.

That is all I am saying.

Thnaks,

Jan

Are you even reading what we are trying to say? I've been trying to be as polite as possible, but this is getting ridiculous... is there anyway I can contact you by phone so I can better explain this issue? I feel like this is all going unread.

The hvx200 and the hpx170 behave drastically different in cold weather. The HVX200 ring turns smoothly in any cold temp, the hpx170 ring takes more force than should be needed to unstick it. I like the way the new hpx ring feels, but there is a major drawback in cold weather, which is the stick. It's there, we all know it is, what are you trying to hide?

you have yet to explain why this happens.

 

[booggerg2]

Are you even reading what we are trying to say? I've been trying to be as polite as possible, but this is getting ridiculous...

The hvx200 and the hpx170 behave drastically different in cold weather. The HVX200 ring turns smoothly in any cold temp, the hpx170 ring takes more force than should be needed to unstick it.

you have yet to explain why this happens.

Yes Jan, the issue we're having with is a fundamental characteristics of a modern lens design. The ability to operate the focus ring at around freezing temperatures without significant performance degradation (relative to performance in room temperatures) is expected out of modern pro-sumer level camcorders? - Would you agree to this statement? If not, would you then agree to the opposite statement - That it is entirely acceptable for current pro-sumer level cameras to have focus rings that gums up at around freezing temperatures?

To say that the lens design of the DVX is different than current cameras and therefore it explains why we experience a degraded level of performance with the focus ring is simply unacceptable. I hope the technicans can provide you a meaningful explanation for the performance degradation. Thanks.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

I am reading what you are saying. The lenses do behave differently. I am saying that yes they do behave differently as they are different. The lubrication does get stiffer, I would expect it to.

This statement does not mean that your experience is wrong or that I do not hear what you are saying. It only means that the lenses are of different designs and they will behave differently.

Thanks,

Jan

 

[booggerg2]

I am reading what you are saying. The lenses do behave differently. I am saying that yes they do behave differently as they are different. The lubrication does get stiffer, I would expect it to.

This statement does not mean that your experience is wrong or that I do not hear what you are saying. It only means that the lenses are of different designs and they will behave differently.

Thanks,

Jan

So would be same to assume the lubrication getting stiff in freezing temperature is not a desirable trait with these new cameras? I mean the DVX as Barry tested did not get stiff at all after being in the freezer alongside with the HPX170 and HVX200A.

Also I believe DM tested the HVX200 and it did not exhibit the same kind of stickiness as his HPX170.. Was there a drasticl lens design change from HVX200 to HVX200A?

 

[DM_rider]

Here's what I think happened. The lens on the 170 and 150 was re-designed with good intentions. But in return, it behaves very badly in cold weather, which I think is something that was completely overlooked. Every 170 owner I have talked to says that their focus rings gets stuck in cold weather, making it difficult to use properly. However, HVX200 owners do not have this issue, and if they did, you would have surely heard about it.

I made this thread a few weeks after I got my 170 when it was starting to get cold outside. It was obviously a big enough problem for me to notice that it was most definitely behaving in a wrong manner.

 

[puredrifting]

If you guys want to split hairs...

Panasonic AG-HPX170P Operators Manual

Page 125 Specifications

Ambient Operating Temperatures
0 degrees Celsius to 40 degrees Celsius (32 degrees Fahrenheit to 104 degrees Fahrenheit)

It's great that the DVX and HVX operate well under freezing temperatures but if shooting in freezing temperatures was a large part of my work, I would have researched this before buying. The 170 is what it is and the construction of it isn't going to change for you. I just don't want to see 170 pictures from Panasonic showing it being used in the Iditarod like the 200 was unless it is enclosed in a heated jacket.

I know, boo, hiss, but if you are a professional, the burden is always on the buyer to make sure that the product will perform to the specifications and in the situations you need in your particular case.

Dan