Stereo recording on set, how ?

Randall_Oelerich

Randall_Oelerich

Veteran
So I have filmed a few shorts and I just used a shotgun/boom and/or lavaliers on actors. Looking to do a feature microbudget indie I see distributors of micro have a deliverables list requiring true stereo recorded tracks (not just mono split into identical L/R). In a practical sense, how is this done on set, in the easiest possible manner realizing crew size on a micro indie will be slim? I have the Zoom H4N, wondering if perhaps dialog from a boom/lavs could be recorded into the H4N's XLR inputs and if set/ambient R/L stereo audio could just be captured using the built in 120 degree condensor mics of the H4N? Or do you use e.g. pencil condensors in shock mounts on stands put on the L and R sides of the set (seems like a lot of work but if needed I guess I gotta do that) and record into a separate second H4N or equivalent? Thank you in advance for any guidance on this!
Randall
 
If you had something you wanted to record onto another channel, you should find the correct microphone to record it with. But I see no reason to do that just so you have data on the other channel. You should record everything separately, including ambient noise. That's how it's actually done on set... in mono. It's cleaner that way. I don't know what list you're going off of, but I'm guessing that just means the mixdown needs to be stereo. That's a post job, weighing dialog based on the side of the screen the person is on and so forth.
 
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99.976% of dialog is recorded mono and 'usually' panned or placed dead-center in the finished audio mix. Music and S/FX are usually pre-mixed or stems. The final format can be stereo, 5.1, 7.1, immersive or whatever. That said, where the actual dialog, music, S/FX are placed in the sound field is a creative decision and up to the producers. If some b'cast or distributor entity you are dealing with has submission guidelines, 'we' would have to see them to offer an opinion or recommendation.
 
Randall_Oelerich said:
In a practical sense, how is this done on set... ?
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It isn't. Adding any kind of ambient room mics during production merely adds the recording of all the peripheral distractions behind the camera, as wll as too cavernous a sound to the dialog. I'm not sure you're reading the delivery specs correctly.

Record dialog in mono, pan it to center in the post mix. Music and ambient tracks are stereo, as are some (but not all) SFX.

Randall_Oelerich said:
... I see distributors of micro have a deliverables list requiring true stereo recorded tracks (not just mono split into identical L/R).
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Without seeing the actual document you're referencing, I can only guess. My guess, then, is that they are asking for a linked stereo file as opposed to split tracks. I have in the past had to deliver stereo mixes for broadcast as separate files for left and right, rather than a true stereo file, when the editor was dropping the mixed audio into Avid for final layback (for some reason Avid at the time did not like stereo files and wanted separated tracks). It was still a stereo mix, just delivered in two files instead of one. Sounds like these distributors want to make sure that they're getting a single stereo sound file as opposed to split.
 
Alex H. said:
It isn't. Adding any kind of ambient room mics during production merely adds the recording of all the peripheral distractions behind the camera, as wll as too cavernous a sound to the dialog. I'm not sure you're reading the delivery specs correctly....[snipped] Without seeing the actual document you're referencing, I can only guess. My guess, then, is that they are asking for a linked stereo file as opposed to split tracks. ...[snipped].
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See attached PDF that was sent to me, the Deliverables list. From Maxim Media Marketing, a micro indie horror distributor. In their pdf of deliverables they discuss (last page, 'Common Causes for QC Rejection' list):
"AUDIO: Stereo audio tracks should be truly stereophonic (panning of independent audio elements) - Dual mono audio (left and right channels are identical) is NOT accepted."
^^^ This is what I am confused on. Sounds like I need separate R and L ambient sounds mics AND of course the boom/labs recording dialog. Am I wrong? I truly hope I am wrong on this, as that means far more complex recording of audio for each scene. How do you all record audio for each scene-- boom/lav for dialog or ambient of course, but do you also then have one or more mics for R and L ambient, or do you just record a single ambient with another mic? Could I just use an H4N recorder and its built in directional mics for ambient and its XLR inputs for dialog? Help me sort out my confusion! LOL
R
 

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Agafilm said:
If you had something you wanted to record onto another channel, you should find the correct microphone to record it with. But I see no reason to do that just so you have data on the other channel. You should record everything separately, including ambient noise. It's cleaner that way. I don't know what list you're going off of, but I'm guessing that just means the mixdown needs to be stereo. That's a post job, weighing dialog based on the side of the screen the person is on and so forth.
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That certainly feels doable, viz recording dialog with a shotgun/labs which would also pick up some ambient, the using L/R panning in post. A bonus if another mic was used purely for ambient, although my question is really wondering what is the minimal audio needed during filming to be able to supply the audio deliverable for a micro distributor. I like your answer, seems like at a minimum normal (as in shorts) audio from a boom might (i don't know, just asking) suffice if in post it was edited with panning to match the scene, then mixed down to stereo (which would be a true stereo, not just identical L/R audio channels.
 
As Alex said the basic answer is that you don't record stereo while shooting you create stereo while mixing. Actually you also add stereo when editing.

The biggest reason why you don't want to do a lot of recording while shooting is that what you are recording is a low budget film set. So unless your film takes place all on a low budget film set you are recording the wrong sounds for your film.

Here is a thread that covers a lot of this.

You probably don't want to jump straight into a full fledge sound post but you can do some of it and make a big difference in the perceived quality of the film. Some level of sound post is also going to be a must to have any chance at actually getting distribution, even at the micro level.

Also so you are clear on it they are not asking for everything to be stereo, they want a stereo mix for your sound track. Dialog is 99.99% mono in all films. I can only think of one film with a budget that had non mono dialog. At the absolute minimum if you use a stereo music track with your mono dialog you have created a stereo mix. For a lot of reasons you do not want to record dialog in stereo.
 
Noiz2 said:
As Alex said the basic answer is that you don't record stereo while shooting you create stereo while mixing. Actually you also add stereo when editing.

The biggest reason why you don't want to do a lot of recording while shooting is that what you are recording is a low budget film set. So unless your film takes place all on a low budget film set you are recording the wrong sounds for your film.

Here is a thread that covers a lot of this.

You probably don't want to jump straight into a full fledge sound post but you can do some of it and make a big difference in the perceived quality of the film. Some level of sound post is also going to be a must to have any chance at actually getting distribution, even at the micro level.

Also so you are clear on it they are not asking for everything to be stereo, they want a stereo mix for your sound track. Dialog is 99.99% mono in all films. I can only think of one film with a budget that had non mono dialog. At the absolute minimum if you use a stereo music track with your mono dialog you have created a stereo mix. For a lot of reasons you do not want to record dialog in stereo.
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AWESOME !!! Thank you so much Noiz2 and Alex ! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
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Randall_Oelerich said:
That certainly feels doable, viz recording dialog with a shotgun/labs which would also pick up some ambient, the using L/R panning in post. A bonus if another mic was used purely for ambient, although my question is really wondering what is the minimal audio needed during filming to be able to supply the audio deliverable for a micro distributor. I like your answer, seems like at a minimum normal (as in shorts) audio from a boom might (i don't know, just asking) suffice if in post it was edited with panning to match the scene, then mixed down to stereo (which would be a true stereo, not just identical L/R audio channels.
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You can probably find a stack of no budget filmmakers who record ambience on set. THey do it because they don't know better, it's a bad idea.

On a film with a budget great lengths are gone to to try and eliminate all sound except the dialog when shooting. That is really beyond the capabilities of most films with small to tiny budgets but you can and should minimize what you can so the dialog is as clean and free of other sounds as you can.

I'm going to make some assumptions based on your posts. First I'm assuming that normally you don't do any sound post work other than adding music and maybe a sound here and there. And I'm also assuming that whoever is editing picture is also the person doing that sound work. And I'm guessing that nobody is getting paid really.

My first recommendation is always to bring someone on who knows something about sound. It can really pay off, especially in your genre. But I'm also going to assume that that is not going to happen.

SO...

Since you are doing sound in a picture program you have some limitations, like you can't place sounds very accurately and working with a lot of tracks can be a big PITA.

What you can do though is to go out and record some ambience tracks that match the scenes. Your aim is to record the sound of the location IN the story, not wherever you ended up shooting that scene. If it's in a city and you found a nice quiet location to film don't record that location go to a city and record it because that is where the story takes place. Record this in stereo.

You are going to have most of what would be done in Foley on a big film covered in your production sound because you didn't go to all of the extremes that a big budget film would go to to keep everything from making noise. And the good news is that Foley is also almost always panned dead center with the dialog.

You are also going to want to record some specific sounds probably, things like cars going away or coming in and parking. These are also usually stereo. If you recording in camera you may want to just hook a stereo mic up when shooting. It's horror so you probably have some viscera to record, stabs guts, dripping blood? These kinds of sounds are usually mono and panned where you need them.

If you end up with mono dialog, stereo backgrounds, a few stereo SFX, and a couple of tracks of specific SFX and a stereo music track you will be heads and heels over many no budget films. And have your stereo mix.
 
Shure VS88 or Pearl MS stereo short shotgun mic recorded to two channels, one to middle mono channel and one to side channel (figure 8 mic element at 90 degrees to mid element). MS mix in post controls stereo field from full left right separation to mono using two mixer channels. There are plugins for DAWS. My MOTU Ultralite software supports MS stereo mixing.
The Shure has switch on board for conventional LR stereo or MS recording. Pearl you have to choose which version you want. Pearls sound fabulous. Shure is very good but not in the same class.
I 've recorded occasional concerts (sound not video) with an MS stereo setup using two separate mics, a large diaphragm figure 8 pattern with a cardioid studio condenser mic. Been a long time, but i liked the results.
The Pearls and the Shure mount on a boom like any conventional short shotgun.
Worth a trial run if you can find or rent a mic.
 
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The requirements document appears to say simply that they don't want MONAURAL final mix audio. They want at least 2-channel proper STEREO.

And as others have said, "stereo" is not RECORDED on the set. It is CREATED in the post-production mix. Simple as that. Don't make a Federal case out of it.
 
Have to say their spec sheet is kind of full of it. THe aspect ratios are wrong (1280X720 is not 1:0), Stereo is not the same as LtRt (LtRt are the two tracks that make up a 4.0 Dolby Surround track), -6 is HOT and you can't actually peak over 0, there is no such thing as a 23.98 frame rate...

I also like that they seem to want files in ProRes which is an Apple format but they want it delivered on a Windows formatted drive.

I always find it fun to read specs. They so often are written by people who either have no idea what they are talking about or are years/ decades out of date.

As always you want to be able to check off the boxes but not get too worked up over the fine points. i.e. You are going to deliver a stereo file not a LtRt, but don't argue they don't know the difference. Know that when they type 23.98 FPS they meant 23.976 FPS and some idiot rounded to make it "simple".
 
After looking at the sheet you attached it is clear they are talking about post production deliverables, and as Scott said, it makes no sense from their end, at least the video stuff. This looks like a case of a client wanting to feel like they know what's up by dictating all the little details to feel important, but they have no clue what's going on.

In all my time dealing with production sound, and all the sets I've visited, and all the dialogue I've gotten from production...I've never ever seen dialogue recorded in stereo. It just creates more problems than it's worth. The only thing that is recorded stereo from production is room tone or other backgrounds. I don't like recording surround or getting surround files from production. Those are worthless. Multiple mono sources or stereo bg's at the most. Dialogue tracks are mono. If you have a boom and lavs, you can do boom on one channel (L) and then a mix of the lavs on the other (R). That's not stereo, but that's not what they're asking for.

It's best to actually discuss this with them to make sure. If they have gotten stereo production tracks in the past, then they are probably the only people doing that. I'll bet you anything it's just post delivery specs.
 
How would anyone know what techniques had been used on set? There is no standard for how a true stereo recording is captured, so the only meaningful requirement is for stereo in the end product. I worked with one client who insisted that stereo recordings all needed an ambience pair in the auditorium. Two tracks of total rubbish that were never used, but recorded. I'm sure listening to the end product made him think it was the ambient mics doing a good job!
 
paulears said:
How would anyone know what techniques had been used on set? There is no standard for how a true stereo recording is captured, so the only meaningful requirement is for stereo in the end product.
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It's pretty easy to figure out how things were recorded by looking at and listening to the audio files. And then there's just calling and asking the production sound mixer what they did and/or looking at the sound reports. Any professional sound mixer that I know also records the very first file of the day giving all their specs, track assignments, and tone.

In terms of stereo recording...there are some standards. X/Y, M/S, ORTF...If get a stereo recording and it is labeled as M/S, I have a pretty idea of how it was recorded. A professional will even tell you what mics were used and what recorder was used AND sample rate and bit depth.
 
To elaborate on Dave's statement, 'room tone' and atmosphere are different. 'Room tone' is recorded in the exact same location, set, settings, as the dialog. 'Atmos' is usually recorded in stereo at a different time and/or place and/or from a third party S/FX source. For instance, a 'city apartment' scene, whilst recorded on a quiet sound stage, the ambient city background noise is added in post.
Yes I've read some pretty bizarre submission specs myself.
 
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