specs HVX

[thisiswells]

This is the last time I will play along with your reindeer games, Obin.

This is the last time I will play along with your reindeer games, Obin.

This IS Wells, it ALMOST feels like you want to stay with VIDEO, and not push the format into "cine"

Wrong. I'm just not interested in borrowing to pay for a $200K digital camera. That is what they cost, Obin. To get the camera you want, today, that is what you will have to pay. Or, settle for a Drake system. Or, a Reel Stream DVX. But, please, don't paraphrase what I say to mean something different. It's just not polite.

jsut as $40,000 is worth spening on a real "cine" camera

I personally wish I could have a Bentley. I would definitely have one if they sold for $40K, but, evidently, it isn't possible to build a handmade automobile for so little. So, here I am, stuck in an Acura. And, guess what, I am okay with that.

BTW This is wells, if you want I will go back over to dvinfo, people on that board enjoy what I am allways talking about and showing. is that what you want?

You can do whatever you like. This is a forum that, to a limited degree, tolerates members expressing their opinions for the actions of another member, so long as it is non-confrontational and does not personally insult the other member.

As a DVXuser reader, I don't appreciate having to wade through four spam messages in a row on a thread I am trying to learn from, each conveying essentially the same thought. The first post could have been edited, if necessary. Instead, you have, in a loud noise, disrupted this thread (along with all others in recent memory) with fanatical remarks about the unsuitability of DVCPro50 and DVCProHD for professional work. And, that you deserve a Bentley for the price of a Scion.

I also don't think it was right the way you went into another members' thread yesterday during congratulatory dialogue about the spec car commercials that member had made to demonstrate what could be done with a DVX and a little creativity (which landed him a high profile gig), leaving the comment, "....and you got the job?" where you proceeded to spam post a link to your website in promotion of your own car commercials.

If that type of behavior is permitted on DVinfo, well, then I'm surprised.

Hope this clears things up.
Brian Wells

 

[Jeskid]

All I have to say guys is:

*28 Day's Later*

-Shot on a Cannon XL1

I don't care what it can or can't do relative things much more expensive than it (or not out yet), the HDX is a huge leap for filmmaking and I for one can't wait for it to come out.

Sincere thanks to all for teaching me about the technology - I am indebted to ya!

Jeskid

 

[stephenvv]

Brian:

Nice response. Well put.

 

[Mediacre]

T
BTW This is wells, if you want I will go back over to dvinfo, people on that board enjoy what I am allways talking about and showing. is that what you want?

Who this Obin guy think he is? Scott Billups? :huh:

 

[Alex Leith]

All I have to say guys is:

*28 Day's Later*

-Shot on a Cannon XL1

Yeah! And it looked like DV too!

 

[Barry_Green]

I would hope that Jan can tell us "yes this is using an HD chipset" can that be said Jan?

Jan has already said that it is an HD chipset.

So Jan, (now that I see you ARE reading this thread) does the HVX have a chipset that is in anyway TRUE or NATIVE HD resolution at all?

Okay, let's be clear here: are you making your purchase decision based on whether the chips are "true or native HD resolution", or whether the FOOTAGE is "true or native HD resolution"?

Because if it's the chips, I don't understand why you're happy with the Andromeda. The Andromeda appears to be delivering native HD resolution in the footage, regardless of the chip size. Is that good enough for what you want? Or not?

 

[Alex Leith]

So Jan, (now that I see you ARE reading this thread) does the HVX have a chipset that is in anyway TRUE or NATIVE HD resolution at all? I think this will answer all my questions.

Er... am I missing something? Jan has repeatedly (patiently) said that the CCDs are analogue devices that don't record pixel for pixel directly onto the recording format. The signal they produce go through a various stages of digitization and processing before they get onto the pixels of the medium.

We know that the CCDs are good for recording HD, 'cause people have seen footage at ResFest. So why do people keep asking if the CCDs are native HD resolution?

 

[braw]

I haven't created a spreadsheet to keep track of this, but I get the vibe that those that are pressing pretty hard for stats, specifically CCD resolution, have a negative stance toward this camera in general anyway.

Me thinks they're fishing for an angle to slam it.

What they have so far:

P2 is expensive

The form factor is amateur

It doesn't shoot HDV (this one kills me)

It doesn'tshoot HD to tape

The lens isn't removeable

Have I missed anything that we have heard 4 million times? Watch this board explode with negativity once specs are released...no matter what they are.

 

[fiercecurry]

I agree, I think we should give this camera a break....its not out yet!!

Once its finally released and people have actually used and tested it, post away.
Until than its just masturbation.

 

[harddrive]

I haven't created a spreadsheet to keep track of this, but I get the vibe that those that are pressing pretty hard for stats, specifically CCD resolution, have a negative stance toward this camera in general anyway.

Me thinks they're fishing for an angle to slam it.

What they have so far:

P2 is expensive

The form factor is amateur

It doesn't shoot HDV (this one kills me)

It doesn'tshoot HD to tape

The lens isn't removeable

From someone I assume is in favour of the camera, I can only say that is a pretty damning list! At least to someone whose interest is actual real life use of the camera for general production. With all those negatives, why do you think I should buy one?

Two of your list are not important in isolation - the expense of P2, and the lack of recording to tape for HD. Taken together they damn the camera - it has no practical method of recording HD! Pretty significant.

We're assured that DVCProHD tape decks are prohibitively expensive, and it's because of that that HDV has been suggested as a solution. DVCProHD may have theoretical advantages, but if you can viably record HDV, and you can't DVCProHD, I know which seems the better option! Braw - if the thought of HDV kills you, the thought of a camera which can't viably record by itself at all certainly kills me!

Panasonic seem to want to have their cake and eat it. If it was felt necessary to include a deck at all, then why does it not matter that HD is to P2 only? In that case surely a P2 only camera would be smaller, lighter, cheaper etc etc? Especially since P2 recording time for SD is longer than for HD? It increasingly seems that the camera is not what they would have designed given total free rein, rather the best that could be brought together with a limited number of options. For companies not wedded to P2 there ARE other options - http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/products/infinity/camcorder/ - for starters! Look at that range of format options, and the possibility of direct to Compact Flash recording. Now we're starting to talk.

I came onto this board with an open mind recently as a Firestore user, following a link from another thread regarding that's possible use with an HVX. The general gist there was that little point could be seen - why buy a P2 camera and then get a Firestore? I was amazed to find here how seriously the idea is being taken, and am increasingly feeling it's a sign that deep down there is a realisation that as sold the camera is barely viable for most productions for HD use at all (at least for a few years), and talk of the Firestore is desperation.

After a demo showing a scenario which could have been hand crafted to show off the merits of P2, (which it does have, along with problems of it's own) I've bought up workflow issues with Panasonic reps at shows in the past, and each time it's ended up with being offered a "solution" that just leaves me saying "but that's more hassle than tape!" No further argument is offered, and I've then moved on. If anyone from Panasonic wishes to comment in this forum, then please do - though I'm not expecting an answer. I've failed to be given a satisfactory one in the past, and believe that's simply because there is not one.

 

[Alex Leith]

I think P2 has its merits. The greatest challenge for those of us sitting down the lower price end of the market it the price.

I do like the look of the Infinity, and the idea of recording onto Iomega RevPro is fantastic! From my point of view I would have loved Panasonic to have ditched the miniDV tape drive for a less expensive than P2 system. Jan says the miniDV drive is there for those who are making the transition from SD to HD. I think those who aren't ready should stick with their DVXs.

That said, if I were in Panansonic's shoes, from a marketing point of view I'd be nervous to loose the tape drive competely. A DV mechanism is inexpensive and it opens the camera to a considerably wider potential market. More people would be put off without any sort of tape drive, than would be put off by only being able to record HD onto P2 cards (I guess).

Anyway, it's designed now, so no amount of wanting it to have a slot loading drive that records Super 3D HD onto inexpensive ice-cream tub lids is going to change it. :grin:

 

[wabbit]

Then buy one of those other solutions. Some get it, some don't. Some are impressed with HDV, some are not. Some would prefer P2 even if a cheap DVCPRO HD tape deck were available, some don't.

If you are one of the ones who want HDV, this is not your camera, so move on. Why continually attack that which is not going to work for you as if that means it won't work for anyone? You have choices, move on. The reasons for Panasonic's decisions have been openingly discussed. If you don't like it, move on.

I don't see the point in discussing that which can not be changed. When the camera comes out, find flaws with it's performance as you wish, it won't be perfect but $10,000 won't buy you perfection. For that matter neither will $100,000.

Sure you have right to complain until your fingers fall off and your voice becomes horse but why? What point does it serve? Are you thinking it will cause Panasonic to dump P2? Adopt HDV in the HVX? It won't. Are you trying to legitimize HDV because you are concerned it will quickly become a professional joke when a realitively cheap professional format comes out? It might, but complaining about it won't change that either.

There is no doubt P2 is not for everyone so choose a system that works for you. Do you need everyone to have the same camera as you to feel better about your purchase? They won't, no matter what choice you make.

P2 is expensive right now and prohibitive for some, but to others it is not. It will fall perfect into our workflow and budget. It's what we have been dreaming about for years and we are thrilled it will soon be available.

We get it, we see the downsides of P2, it is something we feel will work for us. We see the downsides of HDV, it doesn't work for us, we have a choice, we have moved on.

How many different ways does it need to be stated. It appeals to us, not you. So what? If you like strawberry ice cream or Honda Civics, am I required to like them for your choice to be ok?

Who knows, maybe P2 will have too much data loss to not make it a successful format. I don't know and neither do you. Let's wait and find out.

The HVX is pretty much set in stone now. If you want to keep complaining about that which you don't know the details about and can do nothing to change, go for it. But seriously, why are you bothering?

Cheers!

 

[wabbit]

LOL, I guess Braw beat me to my point...nevermind, ignore my above thread. :grin:

 

[harddrive]

You obviously don't like it, so why do you hang out in a forum thread that's all about it? Do you want those that like the prospect of the camera to change their minds because of your written words? Why?

I came here for information. On other forums everybody's written words count as just debate even when in disagreement, as long as cogently argued. I didn't realise that here it was necessary to just make complimentary platitudes, and gloss over obvious flaws in logic.

That's your opinion (on recording HD), but I as well as many others on this board would vehemently disagree with that statement. You have laptop, P2, and Firestore before the camera is released. More will crop up..

Walking around doing actuality filming with a laptop isn't very practical, is it? P2 doesn't allow me to record much without vast expense. I use a Firestore regularly for SD, and it is not 100% reliable - sometimes it fails to capture a clip, but I can always go back to the tape copy when that is a problem. The thought of buying a camera, not being able to viably use either of it's inbuilt recording mechanisms, and having to spend extra money on a third party solution that I know to be less than 100% reliable....... well......

You look at this camera wrong. It isn't like the JVC and the Canon, though it's priced in their range. It's a mini Varicam with some compromises for the sake of cost.

It takes more than DVCProHD recording to make a Varicam. I suggest you compare (say) the output of a F900 dubbed to HDV, and the output of a 1/3" prosumer camera recorded to DVCProHD or HDCAM. I suspect you will find the high quality is associated with the camera front end in the main, far less with the recording medium. The codec and bitrates used in HDV are actually better than broadcast HD.

The Firestore is pimped to HDV and DV cameras as well. It's an alternative to tape. It has been around before P2. What is the point of this? ........and........Go get a HD100 or XL H1, but the second I catch you using the Firestore or SDI out I'm going to call you on being a hypocrite. You had better use the HDV in camera or you will have just negated every single point you just made.

You obviously haven't even bothered to read my post at all carefully, even the bits you quote. You actually quoted me saying "I came onto this board with an open mind recently as a Firestore user, following a link from another thread regarding that's possible use with an HVX." I regularly DO use a Firestore, but the point is that operationally the Firestore is very useful in our operation, but the perception of all of us is that is only true AS LONG AS USED AS WELL AS TAPE. I would not use one by itself, it's not an alternative to tape, but with tape it provides an ideal combination. The FS for rapid download to an edit, the tape as a backup in case of glitches, and a longer term archive. In HD that sweetness would also be true with a HD100 or an XL H1, but not a P2 camera with a tape drive that's useless in HD.

I am going to have to call you on the open minded part of your comments. You have decided this camera sucks for you and offers more problems than solutions. So why are you bringing any of this up? After talking to reps about it, there's little to no way any of us who know as much if not less than you do about it are going to sway you.

Why am I bringing any of this up? It was to have hopefully had a reasoned discussion and debate (it's not too late) and if any well thought out counter arguments were made, I may even have changed my mind. So far that doesn't seem to have been the case.

 

[harddrive]

If you are one of the ones who want HDV, this is not your camera, so move on. Why continually attack that which is not going to work for you as if that means it won't work for anyone? You have choices, move on. ...........

Sure you have right to complain until your fingers fall off and your voice becomes horse but why? What point does it serve? Are you thinking it will cause Panasonic to dump P2? Adopt HDV in the HVX? It won't. Are you trying to legitimize HDV because you are concerned it will quickly become a professional joke when a realitively cheap professional format comes out? It might, but complaining about it won't change that either.

..............But seriously, why are you bothering?

Continually attacking? Responding to a post detailing a list of drawbacks with the camera? Then responding to a reply which doesn't attempt to deal with the issues I raise, but whose tone is just "how dare you dislike this camera"? Would you not say your last post shows one "continually attacking", again without really answering the points I raised? You're determined to find no fault with the camera, get angry with anyone who does, though are not able to really directly and satisfactorily answer the points raised. I can only say that your last post smacked of "methinks thou doth protesteth too much". But seriously, if it's not possible to have a rational discussion, I can't be bothered.

 

[harddrive]

There certainly isn't any mandate around here. Just an irritated user that is sick of hearing 12,001 people fly through bitching about the same thing. If it doesn't work for you then that's that.

So what's the point? If you're looking for factual information, it's all over this board. If you don't like what you see, why argue about it?

I came here fresh, I didn't know you already had had 12,001 people already saying the same thing, raising the same points. But in that case, are you trying to tell me that I and the other 12,000 are all totally wrong? Surely, surely it must occur to you that there really must be a problem? As for why bother, if 12,001 of us have actually bothered to come here, look around, ask our naive and (to you) very irritating questions, get shouted at, and fly through, then hopefully someone at Panasonic who is a little more pragmatic may actually take notice.

And even if the HVX200 spec is set in stone, the 12,001 of us (12,002 by now?) may, just possibly, have had a beneficial effect on whatever comes next. Isn't that worth a little effort?

 

[wabbit]

The point is and always will be there are no answers to the limitations. They are what they are. That is the point. No need to attack anything. Each choice comes with compremises. Make the one that appeals to you. The point is why are you pointing out the limitations that have been covered over and over again.

The point to be made is not what are the problems some people have with the camera but why at this point are people still complaining about them. There appears to be no simple reason. For example, you seem to understand enough about the HVX and P2 to decided if it's right for you. What is the point of saying, "I don't like this" and "I don't like that". It is what it is. Like or don't, it's up to you. Stating your redundant concerns seems like typing exercise.

When the camera does come out I am sure their will be additional limitation, problems, weaknesses, whatever. At that point people will all share their discoveries with this group and others. They will be discuss, debated. Solutions or workarounds will be found for some, others might be address in future models. People considering a purchase will have to factor those issues into their buying decision. But until we have something new to learn about the camera, why rehash old issues that have been beaten into ground?

Way back when HDV was first hitting the market, I, like many others, voiced my concerns with it as a format. I hoped that it would not become a professional trend in lew of the big 3 working towards something less compressed. HDV has clearly caught on with some and since Panasonic is working on an alternative for people that don't like HDV what is the problem?

I, personally, am just trying to find a motivation for beating this dead horse. Can I ask you that?

Best

 

[tomtv]

all of this leads me to ask this quesiton: "who's hiding the perfect camera without any flaws or drawbacks and meets the needs of every shooter in the world"? another question too: "Are the few who have gone off on some diatribe so void of work or things to experiment on with what they have that they need to spend this much finger pounding to to make a point or argue"?

 

[cici]

Where is this thread leading to....? where is the discussion about new specs? Are all discussions in this forum about HVX200 condemmned to end in the same big argue each time? Nobody HAS TO buy this revolutionary product. Why do I say revolutionary? - well, because of it's specs.... and THAT'S why this thread has been opened. To share specs that have NOT YET been shared a lot or at all.... We could ask Jan directly for specs that have not yet been treat in this forum.... but if I were her, I would not read all this argue just to find maybe 1 question about a new spec for the HVX, hidden behind the million of words that are completely off this thread. Poor Cees Mutsaers: you had a good idea for a good thread and it is beeing spoiled for countless pages... Trying to reanimate this clinic-dead thread, I ask for some specs, seldom discussed here: what user-data can be recorded on the SD card?

 

[harddrive]

Trust me Jan is active on this board and hears everything we say. You just have to be reasonable about what to expect.

I am, very reasonable. Like being given a simple redirection or answer to my first post rather than pages of personal ranting against me - your last post is far more reasoned, and impresses me far more, braw. I think the idea of HDV on the tape deck is very reasonable - the hardware is already there - and HDV to P2 in addition to DVCProHD is also reasonable. If you want the extra quality, and have the memory to record it, go with DVCProHD - if it won't fit, go with HDV. Vastly better than nothing?