Sound for budget films

[hscully]

I have a pretty budget kit for sound. I think two lavs works for 85% of what I do but I have a third. I use the Sennheiser EW G3s and they work flawlessly. I picked up a couple of used Country Man lav mics for 2 of the wireless kits and they have saved my butt. They sound great. I have the Audix hyper and I love the way it sounds. I also use an ME66 but only outside and you still have to get it pretty close. That's the main thing. The boom is useful provided it's as close as you can get it.

I have a mixer and run balanced lines right into my camera (AF100). It's a little awkward but it's fine for almost everything. When I need to untether as in a stabilizer shot, I use a Tascam DR40 which accepts balanced line inputs and sync later. Works great.. takes a little EQing. I have an Azden FM-42 (I know... booo!) and it works great! It's very quiet, provides the boom op and/or mixer a monitor, sends a 4dBU tone for setting levels. Plus it's a stereo mixer so I can send the boom left and the lav mix right. I learned that from a real production sound guy. I will buy a used Sound Devices mixer some time but for now, it's really fine.

For headphones I use Sony MDR-7506s which are really good and only 100 bucks. I have one for the mixer and one I listen out of camera to what's coming in. I don't listen for quality just crap but it's good to know that things are working. Plus I can do a quick playback and hear the audio which helps me a lot. There's always something on location kicking around in the background that you hear in the cans you won't hear just listening... like refrigerators! Arggh

The hard part about having your own kit is the operator. I have a couple of people I come back to but the good guys have their own gear, usually way better than mine! It's just that some of my projects cannot afford "real" sound which in my network is anywhere from $300 - $800 a day. It's worth it to me. I'd hire every time if I could but you know...

Sometimes when I'm mixing stuff from my kit and operators I get frustrated but it's "good enough" for web series and interview stuff and I'm getting better at mixing dialog in post so that helps.

good luck with your kit and get that boom op to come in!

 

[Jema]

Going the headphone splitter way seem less complicated than going the mixer route (one less device on the field). Does the headphone splitter introduce new problems, does the sound quality get degraded in some way?

It does give a few problems. For one, it means two cables to and from the boom-op (as has already been mentioned), though this can be solved by attaching them too each other. Second, it means that the mixer/recordist and boom-op wont be able to control their headphone levels individually. On a more technical note, if the two headphones have very different impedance or sensitivity, the levels would be different (as in too high or low for one of them). These are problems that can be controlled with some testing.
All of them disappear when using a mixer, so I actually think that's a "simpler" option, even though it is one more gear to care for.

Okey, for indoor use I see a cardioid or a hypercardioid being used for this because of the reflections issue and because of the wider pickup pattern that these mics have over a typical shotgun. So booming with a cardioid on a two person shoot (that both are seen talking) is doable right? But when shooting outside wouldn't booming with only one boom become a problem as we would probably be using a supercardioid that has a narrow pattern? Wouldn't it be hard to pick up bot actors even if they are standing relatively close to each other and especially if their lines cross over each other?

It has more to do with the boomer and less with the mic. A good boomer adjusts the mics position to the character that is presently talking, and moves the boom with and between the characters as they have their lines. He/she should not just put the boom between two people talking, but have it close to and directed towards the first person talking, and then move it to the other as they start to talk. A narrow pattern will do fine as long as the boom-op can handle it. A wider pattern is generally preferred when there are a large number of people talking with little pause, or when you don't know who is going to speak next.

If the lines cross, that's a completely different problem. It's usually avoided as it limits the editing, but if it has to be there, then yes - you may need two booms or a plant mic for one of them, unless you can pick up both well with one mic if they are quite close together (or if the lavs sound very good that may work for the short duration that the lines overlap).

 

[KINOKS]

It does give a few problems. For one, it means two cables to and from the boom-op (as has already been mentioned), though this can be solved by attaching them too each other.

Yes, but the mixer also has to be connected to the recorder, so in this regard I don't see a difference if there is a headphones cable or an XLR (probably even 2 xlrs or maybe more) between them.

Second, it means that the mixer/recordist and boom-op wont be able to control their headphone levels individually.

This would suck yes. They would both have to settle for some specific gain... As for the headphones, they would both have the 7506 so this would solve the other things you mentioned.


Thx for the booming the dialogue scene advices. I mostly get it now!

I've been doing lot's of research on mics for the last couple of days and it seems to me that it's quite important to have similar sounding lavs and booms. Right? So regarding mics that will be boomed I should be looking (among other things) for mics that will closely match the MKE2 gold lavs that we will probably be using.

It's a shame that we already have some lav mics, if not I would simply opt for the Sanken CS3e and two COS-11Ds lavs and that would be it! Seeing as the CS3e is also acceptable for indoors (at least more so then interference tube mics) we could use it for indoor dialogue especially as the first film that we are doing is mostly shot in big indoor spaces (a museum) with some exteriors (probably only 20% of the script).
Anyway after doing research I really got my heart seattled for the Neumann 81i for outdoors as it seem to cut out excess sounds really good. To that I would add the AT4053b for indoor dialogue. But I have no idea on how this mics would get along with the MKE2s... It's really ruff if not impossible to make decisions such as these as I can't get my hands on all of these mics to test them side by side.


Another thing that I almost disregarded is other stuff that we will need for sound proofing the scenes. Blankets and stuff like that. Can somebody please list a few things that are frequently used for sound proofing scenes? A 10$ blanket can probably make a lot of difference... Anything else than blankets? Bass traps maybe, some plywood, C-stands, etc...?

 

[KINOKS]

Consider the Sound Devices MM-1 headphone preamp. Gives the boom op headphone monitoring and raises the mic signal to line level with a good quality preamp for the hop over to the camera or recorder. Includes a good limiter and high-pass filter.

For that kind of dough I'd rather just buy a mixer...

 

[Jema]

I've been doing lot's of research on mics for the last couple of days and it seems to me that it's quite important to have similar sounding lavs and booms. Right? So regarding mics that will be boomed I should be looking (among other things) for mics that will closely match the MKE2 gold lavs that we will probably be using.

It's a shame that we already have some lav mics, if not I would simply opt for the Sanken CS3e and two COS-11Ds lavs and that would be it! Seeing as the CS3e is also acceptable for indoors (at least more so then interference tube mics) we could use it for indoor dialogue especially as the first film that we are doing is mostly shot in big indoor spaces (a museum) with some exteriors (probably only 20% of the script).
Anyway after doing research I really got my heart seattled for the Neumann 81i for outdoors as it seem to cut out excess sounds really good. To that I would add the AT4053b for indoor dialogue. But I have no idea on how this mics would get along with the MKE2s... It's really ruff if not impossible to make decisions such as these as I can't get my hands on all of these mics to test them side by side.

It is of course very good if the lavs and boom mics match each other as closely as possible, but when you start to get up to the pricier mics that you refer too, I wouldn't sweat it so much as they all aim to sound quite neutral (others may disagree on the importance of this, and I would be happy if they made a comment). All lavs must be filtered in post anyway. If you want more information on this, I would refer to the forum jwsoundgroup.org (do the topic searches through google though, as the sites own search engine isn't very good).
If I were concerned with matching sound, I would definitely not decide on which boom to buy based on the lavs I have, but the other way around. The boom is much more important, and more expensive.

Regarding the damping material, many have different opinions regarding how good it is and how much you should do it. It's good that you are thinking about it, since a big space like a museum could be quite reflective. Moving pads/blankets and thick rubberized carpets are the most common, and having C-stands to put them on is very helpful since you can easily move them around too keep them out of the shot. Bass traps aren't at all common, since the very low frequencies don't affect the voices much, and you want to avoid lugging around on too much stuff (but since you seem to be mostly in one location, maybe that's not such a big issue). See what you can get your hands on, like duvets, matresses, pillows etc. A simple test to find out how absorbing something is; talk while putting it in front of your mouth, and listen to the difference as you take it away.
A tip is to place the damping material as close as you can, since it covers more area that way and absorbs more effectively than if they are put flat against a surface. Use carpets when you can, as this also removes the actors footsteps (and in some cases the crews).

Originally Posted by Steve House
Consider the Sound Devices MM-1 headphone preamp. Gives the boom op headphone monitoring and raises the mic signal to line level with a good quality preamp for the hop over to the camera or recorder. Includes a good limiter and high-pass filter.

For that kind of dough I'd rather just buy a mixer...

I doubt you'd find a mixer of anywhere near that quality for the same cost.

 

[KINOKS]

Okey Jema, I get your logic about the boom and the lavs and I agree, lavs should definetely conform to the boomed mics. It's just that we already have lavs hehe it's reverse logic, I know I'l l check jwsoundgrop thx!

Regarding the MM1 and my mixer comment...: we were talking about buying a used mixpree -> that would cost maybe a bit less than the mm1... but even so I'm not convinced about using only a 2 chanel mixer you know... What if we need more?
Anyway I think I got all the answers I need. Thx you've been very helpfull!

 

[KINOKS]

Okey, I'm not finished yet

It seems to me that buying just one mic for exteriors and only one mic for interiors is not the way to go. Some mics have a longer reach, some have better off-axis rejection, some have a tighter pattern, etc. etc.
I listened carefully to the sound samples of Ken Stone on his web page and I found the Neumann 81i to have the best off-axis rejection. Can somebody confirm this?

So I'm basically asking you folks what mics would you put in your kit for indoor and outdoor dialogue?

 

[hscully]

The problem with a shotgun inside is that there is a tail behind the mic in the pickup pattern that catches the slap off a ceiling. That's why it doesn't work well. You always have that nasty, flangey, slap. If you're in a studio with no ceiling maybe it's not an issue. This is not a problem I frequently have

More likely the wider bubble and pickup pattern of the hyper is ideal for dialog in a room with a ceiling.

The KMR 81i is listed as a Supercardiod/lobe so it's tighter and longer than a hyper but still will have that "tip" in the back. In any case at $1600 I think you're out of the budget microphone range so I bet it's going to sound pretty good. I'd still get or use a hyper inside (or outside with a ball gag if you can get close) and a shotgun outside but then again, I don't have a $1600 super!

 

[Bruce Watson]

The problem with a shotgun inside is that there is a tail behind the mic in the pickup pattern that catches the slap off a ceiling. That's why it doesn't work well.

Interference tube designs also have problems with quick first reflections off walls. This makes for interesting changes in the response curves, and therefore quirky artifacts in the resulting dialog. Artifacts that in general can't be fixed in post. Interference tube designs near reflective surfaces, be they walls, ceilings, or floors, is in general not a good thing. Which is why shotguns are usually relegated to exteriors.

I've been told by people with more experience than I, that the interference tube design problem is the main reason they don't use shotguns indoors. The rear lobe problem you mention seems to be secondary to these guys. Though to me, if the interference tube problem didn't exist, the rear lobe of the polar pattern on shotguns would still make a hypercardiod a better choice for interior work.

 

[KINOKS]

I've been told by people with more experience than I, that the interference tube design problem is the main reason they don't use shotguns indoors. The rear lobe problem you mention seems to be secondary to these guys.

Yep, this is why I don't use supercardioid mics in reflective interiors. Interference tubes (supercardioid) aren't used in reflective environments because of the combe effect. The rear lobe thing...haven't heard this in a while.
@hscully: not all supercardioid mics are bad for interiors. Some are better than others. Some are for instance quite good - like the Sanken CS3e which doesn't use an interference tube but IIRC. But even so, it's still better to use an hypercardioid.

 

[Noiz2]

The problem with a shotgun inside is that there is a tail behind the mic in the pickup pattern that catches the slap off a ceiling. That's why it doesn't work well. You always have that nasty, flangey, slap. If you're in a studio with no ceiling maybe it's not an issue. This is not a problem I frequently have

More likely the wider bubble and pickup pattern of the hyper is ideal for dialog in a room with a ceiling.

BTW everything tighter than a cardioid has a rear tail in the pickup pattern. The tail on a Hyper isn't much smaller than that on a shotgun.

It's certainly possible you could get some sound you don't want from the rear but most of what you are talking about is coming in the sides of the interference tube.

 

[hscully]

I always learn a lot on this forum. Anecdotally it's always that slap that kills me on the shotgun, but I don't have that great a shotgun. I don't seem to get it with the hyper, at least not as bad. There's always some slap and I don't always mind a little depending on the scene. I like the hyper also because it's really clear and warm but the only thing I find is that you have to get it close. It's not very "hot" but it sounds really good to my ear.

I'm off to research interference tube.

 

[KINOKS]

hscully So what do you generally use? Cardioids?

 

[Jema]

Yep, this is why I don't use supercardioid mics in reflective interiors. Interference tubes (supercardioid) aren't used in reflective environments because of the combe effect. The rear lobe thing...haven't heard this in a while.
@hscully: not all supercardioid mics are bad for interiors. Some are better than others. Some are for instance quite good - like the Sanken CS3e which doesn't use an interference tube but IIRC. But even so, it's still better to use an hypercardioid.

I feel a need to make a correction here, so as not to confuse anyone new to the subject. A "supercardioid" does not mean it's a shotgun. It's a pattern, just like hypercardioid, omni etc. Shotguns often use a supercardioid construction as the base, and then "add on" the interference tube, and it's the tube that makes it a shotgun and not a supercardioid mic.

Regarding the microphones: First question, you said you had a budget of about 2k euro, and mics like the CS3e or KMR81i would eat up a considerable amount of that budget. Have you decided to put more money into the sound gear?

Regarding the choice of mic, if you are indeed looking at these professional level mics, then things start to get quite subjective as all are very good and used by professionals on a daily basis, although a few things can be said about the different models.

For one, the sennheiser mkh-line is one of the most widely used, and besides having a very good sound they are very low in self-noise, and because of the rf-construction (which is also the basis of the cheaper rode NTG3) they are almost immune to moisture and extreme temperature conditions, something that can bother other mics (but this is only relevant if you think you will be shooting in such an environment or bad weather - many have an rf-mic as a backup for this reason). Popular shotguns are the MKH60, MKH8060, and the classic MKH416.

The Sanken CS3e is one of the few mics that has the narrow pattern of a shotgun mic without it's problems with reflections, and can therefore be used both in- and outside. Very popular for docs and eng. They can be slightly noisy on very quiet sets though. Sanken also have the CS1 and CS2, which are normal shotgun mices, but reportedly quite good ones.

The kmr81i is the choice of some purely on it's sound, and because it sounds very good off-axis. I don't really know how to put it among the others regarding how narrow the pattern is.

Then there's schoeps, very expensive but very neutral sounding, with little difference off-axis. A bit susceptible to moisture though.

 

[KINOKS]

I feel a need to make a correction here, so as not to confuse anyone new to the subject. A "supercardioid" does not mean it's a shotgun. It's a pattern, just like hypercardioid, omni etc. Shotguns often use a supercardioid construction as the base, and then "add on" the interference tube, and it's the tube that makes it a shotgun and not a supercardioid mic.

Ups, forgot to mention that. Mics like Schoeps CMC641 or Sennheiser mkh50 are bot supercardioids that are regarded as industry standards for picking up dialogue in interiors. They don't use an interference tube.

I
Regarding the microphones: First question, you said you had a budget of about 2k euro, and mics like the CS3e or KMR81i would eat up a considerable amount of that budget. Have you decided to put more money into the sound gear?

Yes and no I decided to put the sanken CS3e on the list for exteriors and the Senn mkh50 for interiors (will probably end up buying the AT4053b).
The reason being: "buy once, cry once" No but seriously I rather see us getting a good mic that will last than an adequate mic that we will want to upgrade in the future. I chose the Sanken CS3e because it can also be used indoors for some instances where the short reach of the mkh50 or at4053b won't be good enough because of the shoot characteristics (wide shoot, etc.). What do you think? Is my rationale sound?

CS3e = 1100€
AT4053b = 320€
2xMDR-7506 = 152€
1xEW-112 = 434€

In total = 2006€

So this will make a relatively complete albeit a small audio kit:
1x Sanken CS3e
1x Senn ME66 (spare mic)
1x AT4053b
2x ME2
1x MKE2 Gold
2x G3 wireless kit
1x K-tec boom pole
1x blipm + dead cat + shock mount
2x MDR-7506
1x Edirol R4
+ cables, batteries, etc.

For now we'll just have to live with the ME2 lavs. We'll upgrade to MKE2 gold later on. So what do you think?

 

[hscully]

I use the Audix SCX1/HC http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/242661-REG/Audix_SCX1_HC_SCX1_HC_Microphone.html

It sounds really good to me. The high end on it is so clean and dynamic and that's good for dialog and it has a really nice warmth from 19" in. It's the only one I've had so I can't compare it to the AT but I've always been curious about that. The handling noise is not bad but it has to be suspended.

 

[Steve House]

FYI, the Sanken CS3 looks like an interference tube mic but IIRC it really isn't. You'll find it's much better behaved in a reflective environment than most shotguns.

 

[hscully]

It's fun to noodle about "the best" mics but my budget (that was the word in the title of the thread) kit is for me, and my budget constrained clients to use to get "good enough" sound without breaking the bank due to budget constraints.

If I have a shoeps boom mic in one of my productions, I want the guy who owns it, his Sound Devices recording mixer, his ability to jam sync, his Lectrosonics wireless rigs with crazy expensive Sanken lavs. In short, if it ain't "budget," I want to hire a production sound person, because it's not just about the gear. The biggest problem I have with my budget kit honestly isn't the gear, it is the budget operator.

 

[KINOKS]

Yeah. Getting good sound people is a problem for me to - on low budget projects. It's easier to rent good gear for cheap than it is to geth good sound operators that will invest their energy on the cheap. I agree with you. A good sound producer will bump the production value 10x more than any pro sound gear. I think this is obvious.

 

[Bruce Watson]

It's fun to noodle about "the best" mics but my budget (that was the word in the title of the thread) kit is for me, and my budget constrained clients to use to get "good enough" sound without breaking the bank due to budget constraints.

If I have a shoeps boom mic in one of my productions, I want the guy who owns it, his Sound Devices recording mixer, his ability to jam sync, his Lectrosonics wireless rigs with crazy expensive Sanken lavs. In short, if it ain't "budget," I want to hire a production sound person, because it's not just about the gear. The biggest problem I have with my budget kit honestly isn't the gear, it is the budget operator.

+1, excellent point. It arguably takes more skill to opererate sound than it does to operate video. And both take their operators' full attention. One person doing both jobs? Don't expect the best results from either, but that's the way most budget constrained productions work these days. OTOH, when the opportunity arises, hire that soundie and get better sound quality for both you and your client. Just sayin'.