Sound for budget films

[KINOKS]

I am putting together a list of equipment that will be used for feature film making. This are budget, indy films in the range of 500k (if lucky).
This is the equipement that we already have:

1x Edirol R-4 Pro
1x Lav: Seinnheiser MKE2 Gold
1x Seinnheiser ENG set "ew 100 ENG G3"
1x Shootgun: ME 66
1x Rhode NT1-A (don't know if this will get any use)
+ other stuf like boom poles and cables and batteries, etc.

So what would you add to this? My budget limit is 2k€. I was looking at the http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...4053b_Hypercardioid_Condenser_Microphone.html a while ago and found it to be a good price performance hypercardioid.
Also I was looking at an Oktava pair like this http://www.ebay.de/itm/Oktava-MK-01...ter_Audio_Hi_Fi_Mikrofone&hash=item51af40ca51
It's nice to have factory paired mics. Just for insurance on set if not for other purposes. But I personally already have an Oktave for my own productions and I'm
really not satisfied with the handling noise that these Oktavas exhibit. So I'm sceptical for getting more of them. I bought mine for documentary work, more specifically
for indoor interviews. But I'm sceptical for outdoor use...
So what would you add? Do you think the R4 is up to the task? Would you add an mixer to the equation (something in the lines of an MixPree D? (I doubt we'll need more
than 2 channels).

Films will be shot with a C100 and a Ninja2 combined with some Rokinon cinema lenses (just to give you a wider sense of feeling regarding production value).

Anyway, thx for all the help you can give!

Br
S

Ps.: I know that there is lots of stuff written about budget audio but I just want to see what you would add to the already owned equipment list.
PPs.: renting is out of the equation due to the nature of the projects...

 

[Jema]

The first thing I would add is a hypercardioid, and the AT you linked to is a good choice (another alternative is the Audix SCX-1HC). If you don't like the handling noise of the Oktava, then don't get it.
Do you have a zeppelin? If not, that would also be on my list. A shockmount for the hyper?
Depending on the projects, a second boom and mic might be considered if you might need to use two at once.

Next, I don't know how far you would get having only one wireless system for features - I would get one more, maybe even two if budget permits. What to get is of course up to personal preference. The G3 is the cheapest decent system available, but I would look at some used Lectrosonics as well.

Regarding the R4, I think it's a good recorder for the price, but not without it's flaws. If it's what you already have, then I would definitely go with it and use the money on other parts of the chain.

About a mixer, it depends on how you will be working. Will there be a two-person team of a mixer and a boom-op? If so, then I would get a mixpre or a MM-1 for the boom op to use. If it's a single sound technician, then a mixer would give you two things that the R4 doesn't have: Limiters, and low cut filters (the R4 has them, but they're digital and doesn't protect against distortion). Depending on the technician, the projects, and the amount of handling noise from the boom, this may or may not be worth it.

Headphones? I recommend the Sennheiser HD25, or if you want something less isolating, the sony 7506.

 

[KINOKS]

The first thing I would add is a hypercardioid, and the AT you linked to is a good choice (another alternative is the Audix SCX-1HC). If you don't like the handling noise of the Oktava, then don't get it.
Do you have a zeppelin? If not, that would also be on my list. A shockmount for the hyper?
Depending on the projects, a second boom and mic might be considered if you might need to use two at once.

Yes we a have blimp, shock mount, etc. But currently only one. So this is definitely something to consider!

Next, I don't know how far you would get having only one wireless system for features - I would get one more, maybe even two if budget permits. What to get is of course up to personal preference. The G3 is the cheapest decent system available, but I would look at some used Lectrosonics as well.

Actually we have to lavs. One is the MKE2 gold and the other is in the ENG pack the ME2. Both omni. But yes, there is only one transmitter and receiver
I agree we need another system. Maybe just another G3 system to pair it up with the already owned ones? I haven't compared the MKE2 and the ME2 yet, so maybe they are not compatible that much, which would mean that we need another MKE2 and another receiver/transmiter pack.

Regarding the R4, I think it's a good recorder for the price, but not without it's flaws. If it's what you already have, then I would definitely go with it and use the money on other parts of the chain.

Yes it's not perfect

About a mixer, it depends on how you will be working. Will there be a two-person team of a mixer and a boom-op? If so, then I would get a mixpre or a MM-1 for the boom op to use. If it's a single sound technician, then a mixer would give you two things that the R4 doesn't have: Limiters, and low cut filters (the R4 has them, but they're digital and doesn't protect against distortion). Depending on the technician, the projects, and the amount of handling noise from the boom, this may or may not be worth it.

Unfortunately I still have no idea on how we'll be working, which kinda makes this whole conversation a mute point But most probably the boom op and the sound recordist won't be the same person (I hope). And getting those nice analogue limiters and cut filters from the mixer would be a great plus, but seeing how this is a feature film maybe we won't need limiters so much (I usually work docs)?? The MixpreeD would also add cleaner pre-amps wouldn't it?

Headphones? I recommend the Sennheiser HD25, or if you want something less isolating, the sony 7506.

We already have some headphones but I'll still have to check which ones. On the equipement list it only says "Headphones" so that's not a good sign. Anyway thx for recommending those two model

Thx for the help Jema!

 

[TheDingo]

I would replace the Seinnheiser ME66 with the Seinnheiser MKE600. The MKE600 is a little cheaper and sounds better. ( ME66 has a bright and somewhat "tinny" sound )

A good hyper-cardioid would be the next addition to make. ( a used AT4053a or a new AT4053b if you can afford it )

And lastly a good mixer like the Sound Devices MixPre-D. ( or the older MixPre )

 

[unclebob6958]

If you are doing narrative work - especially features - you are going to need at least two complete wireless lav systems, and there will be many situations where you will need three. So if you can't afford two or three quality wireless lav systems don't bother with just one. Since you will now be limited tojust booming a shotgun or a hypercardioid don't get the R-44 and get a two channel recorder like the HD-P2, PMD-661 or the FR-2LE; you'll save a few bucks.


I would personally go with:

Rode NTG-3 shotgun - $700
Audio Technica AT4053b hypercardioid- - $600
Boom - $200 to $600
Blimp w/Dead Cat - $300 to $600
Sound Devices MM-1 - $500
Sennheiser HD25 - $150
HD-P2 ($825) or PMD-661 ($660) or FR-2LE ($600), although the Edirol R-4 is a good idea for adding the wireless lavs later.

Don't forget the other accessories like battery packs, cables and cases, somewhere in the neighborhood of another $250 to $500. Rent lavs as you need them.

This obviously puts you WAY over your 2k€ budget. Here's my micro- budget list:

Audio Technica AT875 Shotgun kit (boom, shockmount, softie) - $530
Avantone CK-1 Hypercardioid - $150
Tascam DR-100mkii - $400 w/case
Battery Packs for DR-100mkii - $40 x 2 = $80
Sennheiser HD25 - $150
10' XLR cable - $25
30' XLR cable - $30
Sound Devices MM-1 - $500

 

[Noiz2]

I would swap the MM-1 for a MixPre. The reason is that while you may just be booming one mic mostly being able to hook up a stereo pair and record some FX or music or backgrounds is likely to come up. Also being able to use two mics, say a boom and a plant mic, may well save your butt at some point. It's not a lot more (a used MixPre may actually be less) and your getting a lot more flexibility.

I would also skip the Edirol. I had a chance to play with them and talk to the rep a few years back and it had some real issues. I can't remember off hand what but if you search this forum you can find the old thread. One I believe was really bad battery life.

 

[OzGizmo]

If you're going down the 'mixer path'.... In my belief the mixer should be 1 or 2 channels larger than the number of radio mics you have, to allow for powered mics.
There is NOTHING worse than virtually every shot having to re-configure your mixer.
Keep in mind that phantom power up the back end of some radio mic RX o/p's can caused damage. (a couple of mine have been damaged this way)

 

[KINOKS]

Fellas I think most of you misunderstood me We already own an Edirol R4 an all those other things I wrote

@Dingo: thx for the microphone advice, but we can not sell the ME66 so the MKE600 is not an option. I agree on the hyper and on the mixer. But regarding wireless lav's we already have two lavs but only one wireless system - so I'm thinking of getting another MKE2 Gold and another wireless set.
@Bob: sure I wouldn't mind having four wireless systems for that matter And thx for the list advice! I see that the AT4053b is quite popular, so I'm definitely putting on the list!
@Edwin: as I said we already have the Edirol R4 And yes the battery life sucks that's why we are going to run it on something like this http://www.adorama.com/BOLA148ATM.html
And yes I do agree on the Mixpree only that I would get the newer version MixpreeD - it has more leds and IMHO this is much better for having better control over your levels...
@OzGizmo: I'll keep the phantom power problem in mind, thx!

I'm really sceptical about the Mixpreed as it has only two channels. I know it's a great mixer and the pre-amps are really quiet but I would really need some advice on how do you think the noise flor of the MixpreeD compare to the R4s? And off course I wouldn't mind having analog limiters!!

So basically what you're all saying is:
- get a hyper
- get more than one wireless system (the MKE2 I presume not the ME2 right?)
- consider getting a mixer
- consider another boom (would we really need two booms?)

 

[Jema]

I'm really sceptical about the Mixpreed as it has only two channels. I know it's a great mixer and the pre-amps are really quiet but I would really need some advice on how do you think the noise flor of the MixpreeD compare to the R4s? And off course I wouldn't mind having analog limiters!!

A three or four channel mixer would be better, but it would eat up a lot of your budget. I think Scott has a point about getting a mixpre instead of a MM-1, but it will probably depend on the cost. I would look at an older mixpre used - sure it has fewer leds, but it worked fine for over a decade, and the analogue parts are the same as the new.

Regarding the noise floor, the R4 PRO actually has pretty good ones (the original R4 was bad though). I don't think you would hear any big difference between it and a mixer with the mics you're using. I would still get a small mixer though, since it will be very useful for the boomer, and the limiters help when doing doc work.

And yes, get an external battery for the R4! It's no fun paying for and dragging around on a big bag of AA's.

 

[KINOKS]

sure it has fewer leds, but it worked fine for over a decade, and the analogue parts are the same as the new.

You have a point here

Regarding the noise floor, the R4 PRO actually has pretty good ones (the original R4 was bad though). I don't think you would hear any big difference between it and a mixer with the mics you're using. I would still get a small mixer though, since it will be very useful for the boomer, and the limiters help when doing doc work.

They are that close? Hm... We are not doing doc work but narrative so I'm thinking maybe we don't need limiters??
As for the boomer he could be plugged directly to the sound recordist R4 which would control the levels. This should work right?

Here's a newb question for ya: when filming a dialogue scene in a let's say a two person medium close shot (waist up) would you use two booms? If so, then you would need
two identical mics - right? And, do you film the whole narrative with the same mic or do you use different mics depending on the situation/scene?

 

[davefisk]

2K isn't much. I'd go with at least a 442 in front of your R4. I never use the mic pre's in the Edirol stuff.

 

[Rick R]

"get more than one wireless system (the MKE2 I presume not the ME2 right?"
- You may be confusing microphones with 'wireless systems'.
The ME2 lavaliere mic which was/is included with some of the G2/3 100 series systems. The ME2 works... but the MKE2 is a pro level mic and a relatively expensive mic upgrade. There are other pro 'mic' options worthy of consideration as well. Due diligence in set-up will be the defining factor though.

 

[GaryNattrass]

I have a four and six channel Twelco as my budget mixers: http://www.twelco.hu/ the six channel is around $1k

Not a big fan of the sennheiser Me66 as I has a thin fizzy electret type sound and would be changing that for an AT875R, the hyper from AT is also very good.

I have done numerous indie films with a Twelco mixer and just two AT875R's recording straight to the cameras with a marantz 670 as a back-up recorder and with a sony ECM-MS957 for harvesting stereo backgrounds or spot effects.

A couple of G2 radio mic's also tend to come in very useful.

Headphones are sennheiser HD25's or sony 7506.

 

[KINOKS]

2K isn't much. I'd go with at least a 442 in front of your R4. I never use the mic pre's in the Edirol stuff.

Already have the Edirol stuff, so that's that

"get more than one wireless system (the MKE2 I presume not the ME2 right?"
- You may be confusing microphones with 'wireless systems'.

Actually no, I just wrote that sentence kinda confusing We already have an ME2 and an MKE2 lav. But only one trans/receiver combo. So I'm thinking if getting
another "eng package" from Seinnheiser is the way to go (this package includes an ME2 lav). This would be the cheaper route. The more expensive rout would be to
also buy this eng package but then separately buy an MKE2. Is the ME2 acceptable for this kind of work?

I have a four and six channel Twelco as my budget mixers: http://www.twelco.hu/ the six channel is around $1k

I think that we already talk about this mixer once Gary... I found it to be a good budget option. But now I'm really thinking of going straight to the R4 without a mixer in front.

Not a big fan of the sennheiser Me66 as I has a thin fizzy electret type sound and would be changing that for an AT875R, the hyper from AT is also very good.

You are the second person who's saying this, so I'm thinking there must be something to it! But as of now we are stuck with it. I'll see if we can get around it somehow.
AT875R is a really budget mic. Is there another shotgun that you would recommend?

A couple of G2 radio mic's also tend to come in very useful.

So you don't mind using these instead of something like the MKE2?

Headphones are sennheiser HD25's or sony 7506.

Yep, the 7506 it is!

 

[Jema]

As for the boomer he could be plugged directly to the sound recordist R4 which would control the levels. This should work right?

Here's a newb question for ya: when filming a dialogue scene in a let's say a two person medium close shot (waist up) would you use two booms? If so, then you would need
two identical mics - right? And, do you film the whole narrative with the same mic or do you use different mics depending on the situation/scene?

The boom-op could be going directly into the R4 as you say, but then the issue of monitoring for the boom-op arise. A mixer for him/her would solve that. There are other ways, but they involve splitting the headphone output from the R4, or use a headphone amplifier that is feed by an output from the R4 (that is, if you want to keep it cheap). This would mean having two cables from and to the boom-op.

Regarding the second question, it would depend on the distance between the actors, and if you can see both talking. As a general rule, only one boom is used as long as it can handle the shot without any difficulties. If two are used, then identical mics would be preferred, but you can usually get away with different mics as long as they have a similar sound (and the same mic is used for a specific actor all through the scene).

As to the last question, it's very common to use different mics to handle different situations (such as shotguns outside, hypercardioids inside, or lavs and plants for when it can't be boomed well). Once you've started using a certain approach for a scene though, you usually want to continue using the same mic/mics for the whole scene, so there aren't any sudden changes in sound character between cuts (between different scenes aren't as noticeable).

 

[KINOKS]

The boom-op could be going directly into the R4 as you say, but then the issue of monitoring for the boom-op arise. A mixer for him/her would solve that. There are other ways, but they involve splitting the headphone output from the R4, or use a headphone amplifier that is feed by an output from the R4 (that is, if you want to keep it cheap). This would mean having two cables from and to the boom-op.

Off course, he can't monitor. Doh! What was I thinkin. Going the headphone splitter way seem less complicated than going the mixer route (one less device on the field). Does the headphone splitter introduce new problems, does the sound quality get degraded in some way?

Regarding the second question, it would depend on the distance between the actors, and if you can see both talking. As a general rule, only one boom is used as long as it can handle the shot without any difficulties. If two are used, then identical mics would be preferred, but you can usually get away with different mics as long as they have a similar sound (and the same mic is used for a specific actor all through the scene).

Okey, for indoor use I see a cardioid or a hypercardioid being used for this because of the reflections issue and because of the wider pickup pattern that these mics have over a typical shotgun. So booming with a cardioid on a two person shoot (that both are seen talking) is doable right? But when shooting outside wouldn't booming with only one boom become a problem as we would probably be using a supercardioid that has a narrow pattern? Wouldn't it be hard to pick up bot actors even if they are standing relatively close to each other and especially if their lines cross over each other?

...you usually want to continue using the same mic/mics for the whole scene, so there aren't any sudden changes in sound character between cuts (between different scenes aren't as noticeable).

Okey, I get that. thx!

 

[KINOKS]

The ME66 has a tiny sound... I'm thinking this wont cut well with a hypercardioid...right? Can anybody recommend me a supercardioid for outdoor dialogue that will cut well with the AT4053b? Or any other hyper/shotgun combo that can work good together?

 

[GaryNattrass]

If I am doing budget movies then I assign budget gear too as it shows people that the skills at the front end are far more important than a mega bucks bit of kit.

It is all about what is acceptable and an AT 875R is my stock mic for so many things these days, there may be better ones out there but I find it very easy to use in lots of situations and for people who are not experts in audio.

As for LAV mic's the MKE2 is a great lav but as I have some G2's with the ME2 that is what is assigned and once again can give good result if used correctly.

I have also done indie drama with no mixer but find that sep sound tends to get people more confused and I am a great advocate in keeping things simple so if all that is needed is an AT875R straight into the camera then that is all that gets used, I always listen to the recorded sound though even if I am operating the camera.

At the end of the day if you have a budget film to do then you use whatever you have to hand but it is more about HOW you use it and not WHAT you use for most of the time.

A 416 and NTG3 may sound better compared to the budget AT875R but if an 875R is all you have then it is acceptable in my mind, the ME66 does have a different sound and is like the NTG1 to my ears and I used to have both of those mic's but now just have the AT875R.

I find the AT875R acceptable for indoor and outdoor sound so it tends to be used for both.

 

[KINOKS]

At the end of the day if you have a budget film to do then you use whatever you have to hand but it is more about HOW you use it and not WHAT you use for most of the time.

100% agreed. But I have some room in the budget department, so maybe I can squeeze in something better than the ME66 or an AT875R for that matter. But we'll conform to anything that will work in the end off-course

 

[Steve House]

Off course, he can't monitor. Doh! What was I thinkin. Going the headphone splitter way seem less complicated than going the mixer route (one less device on the field). Does the headphone splitter introduce new problems, does the sound quality get degraded in some way?


...

Consider the Sound Devices MM-1 headphone preamp. Gives the boom op headphone monitoring and raises the mic signal to line level with a good quality preamp for the hop over to the camera or recorder. Includes a good limiter and high-pass filter.