Sound Devices 442 question

[pirx]

It's my first post here so hello to everyone! (And sorry for my english, I'm still learning…)

I'm going to make my debut as a production mixer this friday so i'm frightened as hell and have lots of questions…

I want to record three separate channels (don't want to mix, in post I need to get 3 mono tracks). Two ME-66 on the talent and one handheld (EW100) for the audience who will ask him questions. This is going to be a meeting of the actor and the audience, a part of documentary movie about this actor.

Recording device is camera RED. Someone recommended me Sound Devices 442 as it has 4 direct outputs. But I have just read in it's manual this outputs are pre-fader which means I will not have control over the level. (Whats the use of these outputs then?)

I could maybe use two main outs (L andR): one for (main) ME-66 and one for the audience mike. The second ME-66 I could send through the direct out - this mike is less important. Does it make sense?
Or maybe you could recommend another solutions so that I could have control over 3 channels..?

And few more basic questions:
How do you monitor the signal sent through the direct output? Does it return together with the signals sent through the main out?
What does it mean that 442 has two returns A and B? Is it possible to receive return from two recording devices?

Please help!

 

[gpforet]

Pre-fader is where it should be. But it is post-trim, and it is the trim control that's used to establish the level being send to the direct out. the level knobs are used for controlling the level of each channel to the main outputs.

So yes, you will have control of the level to each channel of the recorder by using the trim control. This is industry standard for direct channel recording.

For monitoring the signals of the direct outs, I would suggest using the monitoring section of the recorder and soloing each input as needed.

Direct iso recording is typically not done as a "mix" operation. Trim levels are set to prevent overload and achieve -12 to -18 dialog and levels are not touched again. The peak limiters for each channel which are in front of the direct outs keep the signal from clipping (but not from sounding squashed).

The returns are typically used as returns from cameras, but you can certainly run a 2 channel return from your recorders to those inputs and use that as a foldback.

Why two booms on the talent?

 

[pirx]

Thank you for your response! I feel I'm getting to understand the idea of direct outs.
But I'm not sure of that: should I set the gain so that the dialog gets between -18 and -12 db on the meter?

Isn't it too low..?

Two mikes on talent just in case. I don't know how big the audience and room are going to be and where the people will sit. I'm afraid the actor will turn right and left to hear the questions (he is 96 years old and has problems with hearing..) So I want to put one mic on a stand in front of him and second mic a bit aside in case. (nonsense?) Mics will be ofcourse outside the frame.

As to monitoring, I will not be able to use monitoring section of the recorder as the recorder is camera, but I do would like to hear what in fact is recording there.

 

[gpforet]

Dialog is recording at the between -18 and -12 (which means transient peaks can hit anywhere from -3 to -6) to ENSURE that peaks NEVER reach 0. Most editors will expect dialog to be recorded at that level. This is the level you adjust the trim control to read on the recording device. The mixer meter reads post fader so that won't help in setting pre-fader levels.

I would strongly suggest NOT using the audio recording capabilities of the RED as they are crap compared to even the most inexpensive recorders.

Since you've chosen Sound Devices as your mixer, here's an article from them testing the REDs audio.

http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/red-one/

Although the RED provides 4 audio channels, it's still 4 channel of inferior recording. I would strongly recommend renting either a SD 744 or even an edirol R44 for audio and send a feed to the RED to be used as a scratch track for syncing later.

If you do decide to use the REDs audio section (did I mention it was crap), then your betacable will provide the return to the mixer so you can monitor what the camera is getting.

 

[Steve House]

Thank you for your response! I feel I'm getting to understand the idea of direct outs.
But I'm not sure of that: should I set the gain so that the dialog gets between -18 and -12 db on the meter?
View attachment 31446
Isn't it too low..?

Two mikes on talent just in case. I don't know how big the audience and room are going to be and where the people will sit. I'm afraid the actor will turn right and left to hear the questions (he is 96 years old and has problems with hearing..) So I want to put one mic on a stand in front of him and second mic a bit aside in case. (nonsense?) Mics will be ofcourse outside the frame.

As to monitoring, I will not be able to use monitoring section of the recorder as the recorder is camera, but I do would like to hear what in fact is recording there.

The MIXER'S meters will read between 0 and +4 dB, the RECORDER'S meters will read around -18dBFS.

 

[gpforet]

On my alphamix, the mixer's meter's deflection will change based on how I crank the level control of the channel, which is the level being send to the main outputs, not the channel isos, irrelevant if the iso is being taken pre-fader. So, at least on my alphamix, the mixer's meter will tell me nothing about the level of signal being sent out of the channel direct output. It is my understanding that the 442 is also pre-fader.

That being said, you can use the pfl switch for each channel to view the channel metering, pre-fader. This is the momentary switch labels pfl. But, without the pfl switch being engaged, the mixer's meters will meter the output of the mix, not the individual channel level pre-fader.

So, again, when using the channel outputs, the mixer's meters (unless using the pfl switch), as well as the channels fader knob, are irrelevant to the level being send out of the channel's direct output.

The MIXER'S meters will read between 0 and +4 dB, the RECORDER'S meters will read around -18dBFS.

 

[Steve House]

On my alphamix, the mixer's meter's deflection will change based on how I crank the level control of the channel, which is the level being send to the main outputs, not the channel isos, irrelevant if the iso is being taken pre-fader. So, at least on my alphamix, the mixer's meter will tell me nothing about the level of signal being sent out of the channel direct output. It is my understanding that the 442 is also pre-fader.

...

True for the 442 as well. However the 442 does have a momentary contact 'PFL' switch on each channel that sends the post-trim iso signal to the meter left channel and the phones, bypassing the channel faders and main output level control, for gain setup and monitoring.

 

[dre83]

First, for me it's very strange they use the RED for just an interview session.... But whatever...RED is famous, RED is cool, so everyone uses it...

For the 96 years old guy... using 2 mics is not stupid. But maybe instead of "boom-mics" you could use table-mics (goosneck). Having mics in a situation like this is not....unusual...It's not a movie....
(for that raison also my daughts about using the RED....)

Every mic is important.... if it's not important...don't use it....

Recording sound seperatly is a oood idea

 

[Hiro Nakamura]

From what I have read, if you managed to change the settings, you could have AES as the output, which means each XLR output are two channels, so... you can do 4 channels at the sametime, but you need to have four channel recorders to record the audio. you could hook up the redone, but keep away from having cables and you might have problem of getting decent audio from red one, which you use general 1k tone and line level, so... you might need to have a trial before the real shoot. but record your audio to a 4 channel record would be ideal for 100% sure what you hear is what you get to your recorder.

Hiro