F35: Sony Venice VS Sony F35

abreu-canedo said:
Like I said earlier, I don't know the specifics of how the photosites compare between the F35 and the Venice.

I love the look of the F35, but ultimately, the comparison is not based on numbers. Instead, based on business and market. Venice is a camera that aims to currently compete for market share in union shows and rental market...with owner ops as a lower priority. Currently, the F35 is not really a contender in the arena. The look of the camera is not really the only factor.

As per my previous post, if you are an owner-op working on indies or mid-tier stuff, the F35 at $10k is a viable option.
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Or if you are somebody looking for the absolute most pleasing images out of a camera, and don't want to use an Arri for some reason.

The F35 is just not a contender in the world of corporate and midtier productions. Because they need to do what everybody else is doing because they are nobody. But if a Hollywood big wig decided he wanted to shoot a movie with a F35 there is nobody who would let out a single tweet. The sheep would even call him a genius for thinking outside the box. That would probably start a whole new crazy about how great the F35 is. It's only people working on regular boring stuff who really cares about what you are saying. If James Cameron for example wanted to shoot with a F35, he would just buy all they had on ebay and other sources and not give a single thought to your rental house support, union, business or market argument.

The F65 is now also basically in the same boat as the F35 by the way. The difference is it doesn't look nearly as good. So it won't have the cult following or second life the F35 has. The F65 will go the way of the D20 and Viper and be just an old camera.
 
Sttratos said:
Or if you are somebody looking for the absolute most pleasing images out of a camera, and don't want to use an Arri for some reason.

The F35 is just not a contender in the world of corporate and midtier productions. Because they need to do what everybody else is doing because they are nobody. But if a Hollywood big wig decided he wanted to shoot a movie with a F35 there is nobody who would let out a single tweet. The sheep would even call him a genius for thinking outside the box. That would probably start a whole new crazy about how great the F35 is. It's only people working on regular boring stuff who really cares about what you are saying. If James Cameron for example wanted to shoot with a F35, he would just buy all they had on ebay and other sources and not give a single thought to your rental house support, union, business or market argument.

The F65 is now also basically in the same boat as the F35 by the way. The difference is it doesn't look nearly as good. So it won't have the cult following or second life the F35 has. The F65 will go the way of the D20 and Viper and be just an old camera.
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Why be so mean, Sttratos?

I mean, sure, Soderbergh used an iphone, so it's possible for someone to use an F35. There are possibilities and probabilities. My comments weren't meant to be rules that the universe can't deviate from, simply my observation of the production landscape. If you view it differently, I respect your opinion. But I don't think it's up to you to decide who cares about what I'm saying. You are entitled to speak for yourself, but when you speak for others in a way that is denegrating another member of the forum, you are contributing to a toxic environment.

Pleasing is subjective. Many people prefer the images of the Alexa over the F35. People have different priorities. I'm not here trying to qualify the image of any camera in any objective way.

Lastly, I contribute to this forum under my real name, and hold myself accountable for everything I say. My goal with every post is to contribute to the productivity of this forum, and to be helpful to others.
 
abreu-canedo said:
Why be so mean, Sttratos?

I mean, sure, Soderbergh used an iphone, so it's possible for someone to use an F35. There are possibilities and probabilities. My comments weren't meant to be rules that the universe can't deviate from, simply my observation of the production landscape. If you view it differently, I respect your opinion. But I don't think it's up to you to decide who cares about what I'm saying. You are entitled to speak for yourself, but when you speak for others in a way that is denegrating another member of the forum, you are contributing to a toxic environment.

Pleasing is subjective. Many people prefer the images of the Alexa over the F35. People have different priorities. I'm not here trying to qualify the image of any camera in any objective way.

Lastly, I contribute to this forum under my real name, and hold myself accountable for everything I say. My goal with every post is to contribute to the productivity of this forum, and to be helpful to others.
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First I didn't mean for it to be mean. I was just being direct. I'm trying now to write in smiles and other things to look more friendly. :)

Second I don't know what your real name has to do with this. It's your own decision to use it. Apparently it must bring you something, maybe promotion, or you wouldn't do it. :happy:

Thirdly, it was pretty obvious Starcentral was not comparing them in a business sense but image. I don't know why you had to bring the business side into it? Artists mainly care about the image. :thumbsup: Or did you get the impression Starcentral was saying a F35 would make more money than a Venice? To me it was obvious he was comparing the images and that comparison is very valid. But you said you were not sure they really compare at all. Why not? :)They absolutely do! :thumbsup:At least under the context Starcentral seemed to be comparing them, which is image. He even mentioned mojo. That should have been the hook right there. :happy:

So it's not that I view it differently. It's that you seem to be talking about something the original post was not. You are the one viewing it differently, apparently. Who in their right mind would claim the F35 makes more business sense than a Venice? :huh:

I'm also not speaking for others. Or do I have to write IMO after everything I write? If I'm writing it, doesn't it automatically means it's IMO?:2vrolijk_08:

Pleasing is indeed subjective. Hence why I said the proof is in the pudding and no F65 or F55 stuff gets as much praise in the forums as F35 stuff. No idea what you are on about the Alexa either, I shoot and own an Alexa. :smile: I obviously like its image.:thumbsup:

abreu-canedo said:
As it relates to the F35, I'm not sure they really compare at all.
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Sttratos said:
Hence why I said the proof is in the pudding and no F65 or F55 stuff gets as much praise in the forums as F35 stuff.
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Forum praise could be over rated. Three shows with completely different style, Big Bang Theory, The Crown and The Blacklist. If the F55 can pull off that divergent hat trick and your name is not on the credits, camera mojo is probably not the reason. If your name *is* on the credits, then you can say the proof is in the pudding and I would completely agree.
 
Tom Roper said:
Forum praise could be over rated. Three shows with completely different style, Big Bang Theory, The Crown and The Blacklist. If the F55 can pull off that divergent hat trick and your name is not on the credits, camera mojo is probably not the reason. If your name *is* on the credits, then you can say the proof is in the pudding and I would completely agree.
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Riiiight. Forum praise by professionals and people who actually shoot and don't even own the camera is over rated. What praise is valid then? Just praise from the people who shot it or own the camera. I must LOL at that.

And soft filters does not equal mojo!
 
Tom Roper said:
Forum praise could be over rated. Three shows with completely different style, Big Bang Theory, The Crown and The Blacklist. If the F55 can pull off that divergent hat trick and your name is not on the credits, camera mojo is probably not the reason. If your name *is* on the credits, then you can say the proof is in the pudding and I would completely agree.
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The Crown is top notch. But can someone please tell me what in the F*@$ they are thinking on The Big Bang Theory, visually, if they are still shooting on the 55? Over the course of the last few seasons it has just gotten flatter and flatter and flatter with their grade and lighting. It's so bad now, that I honestly find it hard to watch these last few seasons. I understand it's a multi-cam studio show, but if you look at the earlier seasons, they look fine(color, contrast, shadows). Now there is none of that, it seems one step above S-Log. And not even as good as just slapping a 709 LUT on it. I can't believe that the producers and DP look at the finished product and think, "Yeah, that looks good".
 
Run&Gun said:
The Crown is top notch. But can someone please tell me what in the F*@$ they are thinking on The Big Bang Theory, visually, if they are still shooting on the 55? Over the course of the last few seasons it has just gotten flatter and flatter and flatter with their grade and lighting. It's so bad now, that I honestly find it hard to watch these last few seasons. I understand it's a multi-cam studio show, but if you look at the earlier seasons, they look fine(color, contrast, shadows). Now there is none of that, it seems one step above S-Log. And not even as good as just slapping a 709 LUT on it. I can't believe that the producers and DP look at the finished product and think, "Yeah, that looks good".
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Lower contrast is definitely more flattering for actors as they age, though I don't know if that's their particular reasoning.
 
Run&Gun said:
The Crown is top notch. But can someone please tell me what in the F*@$ they are thinking on The Big Bang Theory, visually, if they are still shooting on the 55? Over the course of the last few seasons it has just gotten flatter and flatter and flatter with their grade and lighting. It's so bad now, that I honestly find it hard to watch these last few seasons. I understand it's a multi-cam studio show, but if you look at the earlier seasons, they look fine(color, contrast, shadows). Now there is none of that, it seems one step above S-Log. And not even as good as just slapping a 709 LUT on it. I can't believe that the producers and DP look at the finished product and think, "Yeah, that looks good".
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BBT is shot in 709, btw.
 
Tom Roper said:
Forum praise could be over rated. Three shows with completely different style, Big Bang Theory, The Crown and The Blacklist. If the F55 can pull off that divergent hat trick and your name is not on the credits, camera mojo is probably not the reason. If your name *is* on the credits, then you can say the proof is in the pudding and I would completely agree.
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Not to discredit any talented DP's of course but there is just what the camera "looks like" and what characteristics it has on its own before a top post company gets to the footage and tames it. Many people here on the forums also have credits so I wouldn't discount views or praise on cameras just because they aren't the DP of "The Crown".

What I find very ironic is that Venice is being marketed by Sony themselves as new & paintery, more film like, designed for better color and highlight rendition etc.. but a few years back when people were looking at investing $45k into a camera and genuinely questioned the quality/look of the F55 everyone was quick to jump on them (including Sony) to say "if you can't make it look good then you don't know what you are doing" (That was actually a quote from Sony). Yet again we hear Sony's infamous words "we listened to our customers" and what do all these improvements on Venice then say about previous gen?

Anyway Venice is already out in the field and some are saying "yes side by side in high contrast scenes Venice is holding bright lights, hot sources much better without blowing, detail is preserved on lamp shades where before you'd have to pull that out of grading." so that's a bit promising and exciting - these are not million dollar shows underway, just observations of camera characteristics and I think those kinds are valid to make. I did heard from one individual who said there was a lot of noise in shadows at 500 ISO but if you rate it 250 ISO then it's fine. I hope Sony releases the dual-ISO mode soon.
 
Alexa footage gets graded too. If it’s a closer starting point there will be less work in post. Miranda said the F55 could give the look he wanted and meet Netflix 4k. It would make no sense to save a little bit on cameras if it took a disproportionate effort in post. The artist had confidence he could prioritze a practical decision over an emotional choice. The Crown has the same advantage as any other with similar production resources.

F55 was one of the the first 4k cameras. Venice doesn’t get the same benefit of a new tech hook for its intro. They did listen. They built on what they learned. Why wouldn’t they own that message? It’s not irony. It’s progress.
 
Tom Roper said:
Alexa footage gets graded too. If it’s a closer starting point there will be less work in post. Miranda said the F55 could give the look he wanted and meet Netflix 4k. It would make no sense to save a little bit on cameras if it took a disproportionate effort in post. The artist had confidence he could prioritze a practical decision over an emotional choice. The Crown has the same advantage as any other with similar production resources.

F55 was one of the the first 4k cameras. Venice doesn’t get the same benefit of a new tech hook for its intro. They did listen. They built on what they learned. Why wouldn’t they own that message? It’s not irony. It’s progress.
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Miranda very clearly prefers the F65, in fact in many interviews he said preferred the F65 over the F55 and even though he had F55's to use on productions he tried not to use it at all. He mentioned how he liked the blacks a lot more from the F65 as well as the noise it had in shadows versus shadow noise from F55. Given the sensor resolution I can kind of relate to this, I remember shooting 3200 ISO on the F55 in 4K but yet when I downscaled it to HD the noise in the shadows looked different, better, nicer. It could stand to reason that the F65 with it's 8k sensor would end up producing a finer noise at 4k, and even more so in HD...

No one's arguing if the F55 can be used or not, of course it can but camera's have inherent DNA we can't ignore.



That shot of the guy at the bar was shot quite poorly, as well it was original sgamut with full matrix enabled in custom mode so not good all around - but if you want to play around with it here's an original high quality frame at least: www.hingsberg.com/downloads/2018/juniorworkers/junior_workers.zip
 
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