F5: Sony SR codec on PMW-F5

cuervo

cuervo

Veteran
One of the unsung features of the PMW-F55/F5 is the SR-SQ 444 codec, recording in pristine RGB color space. The F5 can't shoot this mode in 4k, but, it's of no consequence, as I'm not getting a lot of demand for 4K delivery. The SR-SQ codec is absolutely stunning in color rendition, avoiding RGB->YPrPb convolution->RGB deconvolution. The one tricky part is maintaining the RGB pipeline thru delivery. Fortunately, both Resolve and Media Composer v8.3 can handle RGB 444. I can't speak highly enough of the performance of this mode, which I almost always shoot in CineEI/Sgamut3/Slog3.cine. As a side note, I'm finding that applying Art Adams' Arri desaturation techniques directly to Slog3.cine is much preferable to using the built in LC709A LUT.

While the F5 will feed an RGB signal out the external HDSDI Main connectors, there are very few portable RGB recorders around. The PIX 240i will injest RGB acceptably, but, will convolve the RGB to YPrPb before recording to its media. There's always losses in the exchange between RGB and YPrPb, so, I'd love to be able to record RGB in an external recorder like my Odyssey 7Q. If the O7Q could incorporate the ProRes 4444XQ codec, all would be excellent. Hopefully, and according to what I've been told, Convergent Design is working on this capability.

I must say, discovery of the SStP capability is icing on the F series cake.
 
Just get a R5 used and you'll never have to worry about powering or cabling anything external for recording plus you will get 4K. I know it's expensive, but really, it's the icing on the F series cake in my books.

When I sold my F3 and went to F series I justified part of the extra expense to the fact I wouldn't have to dick with any external recorders again period. There is always risk or potential for something not working even if very small.
 
Let's not forget that the highest grossing film in history was shot in SR :D

The main reason I went with the F5 over the FS7 was the ability to film in SR. For some reason the SR codec is overlooked, people say it's 'old'. It would be nice if Sony could give us the 12bit version in the V6 firmware. If Sony could add 2K or even 4K SR I would be very very happy.

When I first saw SR in the Vegas time-line I was blown away. SR is rock solid and indestructible. I have since used XAVC in 1080p and it's good, but not a patch on the 'old' SR. I always thought that all this 444 or 422 was nonsense until I bought the F5 and saw the difference with my own eyes. The biggest problem really is showing off high quality video on-line. We can't even do 1080p properly never mind 4K.

If you really want ProRes 4444 why not just buy the CBK-55PD board which will give you ProRes 4444 in 12bit RGB and no hassles of using an external recorder. I'm still patiently waiting for it to be released.
 
Jack's point is even better than mine, the proRes board for ~ $2k is cheap compared to R5, etc.. and again, no external mess.

:D
 
Dennis,
I've got an R5. The record media is INSANELY expensive! Plus, it's recording Sony RAW, which is a pretty high data rate. I'd be MUCH happier with the compressed datarate of RGB to ProRes4444XQ. The cost per bit on O7Q recorders is one of the lowest in the industry, plus, I get an outstanding OLED display. If I was shoulder mounting, I might agree with you, but, AFAIK, an external recorder/monitor recording to a native Avid codec like Prores or DNxHR444 saves me on transcodes/injests.

The CBK-55PD internal board is OK, but, has it's own drawbacks. It won't do 4K, so, it's really not as flexible as an O7Q. Besides, I already own 2 O7Q's and dropping another $2kUS is...uhhh...painful. Jack, I think the processor bandwidth is limited to 4K or 4444RGB. My understanding is that it won't do both, for bandwidth reasons. In fact, there are software converters around that will pixel average 4k sources to produce 4444RGB in HD. But, I've given that board a lot of thought. I may sell one O7Q and send my F5 off to Sony for the upgrade board, since, your suggestion would be simpler. I got such a screamin' deal on my secon O7Q by trading in a nanoflash I never used anymore.

For a few shoulder mounted needs, I mounted an O7Q on the port side of the F5, threw on a soft shroud form fitted to my face. With a Cinematics wireless thumbwheel remote, I've got a real easy to use rig. The only drawback to the O7Q is that the director always positions herself over my left rear shoulder to monitor my frame....it gets pretty irritating....:)

Really, this is a minor issue for me. I just wanted to note how much I love the quality of the SR-SQ codec.
 
Last edited:
I don't believe the board is capable of 12-bit ProRes 4444, yet. Sony said it would be in "a future firmware update".
 
External recorders are the enemy and I would be scarred for life if one bricked the camera or it did not record the footage or some other silliness, lol. Why even chance it?

I have thought about the 7Q and it wouldn't work for me because I don't believe the F5 can output 4K to an external recorder, but I might be wrong. Even if it can; would 4K ProRes 422 be any better than the internal 4K XAVC? I believe it would both look similar but perhaps Mitch would know? I'm not trying to bash the 7Q or CD because I like the product and CD has the best customer service, it's just I'm scared of all external recorders and of something going wrong because I'm very unlucky.

RAW is the highest quality achievable and I believe the Sony 16bit RAW is even better than film. I dare not touch RAW yet, I will be amazed and it's so expensive but Perhaps in 2016 RAW will be affordable to me :D

I believe Grug has filmed in both in RAW and SR, and has seen both codecs projected on to a cinema screen. I always wanted to ask him what he thought between the 10bit SR and 16bit RAW?
 
Last edited:
At the level of image quality all these codecs provide, I think it's often more a question of functionality rather than straight image quality that decides the matter. It's about how much data we can afford to record and what kind of post-workflow each production can support.

SR444 is a gem, it's been my go-to codec for most of my work to date. However not offering any kind of off-speed recording is a serious pain in the arse, (especially when the camera is capable of recording up to 48/50fps at that data rate). 4k 16-bit linear raw is on another level entirely as far as grade-ability goes, but that said, projected from an HD DCP I couldn't see much difference on a big screen for the final images.

With my 4k upgrade freshly installed and an R5 recorder on the way, I'll be interested to see what (if anything) becomes my new default recording mode - 4K XAVC for simple 1-60fps access and post-zooms? Or 2k raw for 16-bit tonality, manageable ProResHQ file sizes (2k raw is smaller than SR444), simple access to 1-240fps and access to using Sgamut3.cine combined with SLOG2 (which gives you both the best image the camera can capture, and also lets you use false colour in the EVF)?

Thanks to the built-in proxy recording, raw from the F5(5) is really easy to work with. I'm looking forward to it. I just wish people would fork out the money for storage to shoot 4k raw (no one ever does :( )
 
Last edited:
JackCarter said:
External recorders are the enemy and I would be scarred for life if one bricked the camera or it did not record the footage or some other silliness, lol. Why even chance it?

I have thought about the 7Q and it wouldn't work for me because I don't believe the F5 can output 4K to an external recorder, but I might be wrong. Even if it can; would 4K ProRes 422 be any better than the internal 4K XAVC?
Click to expand...

Yes, shooting 4K XAVC, the F5(with the 4k upgrade)will output 4K on 3G HDSDI Main. The O7Q WILL record 4K Prores HQ with 4K Prores 444XQ promised to come. All things being equal, this should rival the SR codec provided the input signal is RGB.

Your concern for bricking your F5 is groundless. I've never heard of any external recorder doing that; and I've been using external recorders for a decade. It's possible that an external recorder may malfunction and not record properly, but, I've always used the onboard XAVC/AVC/or MPEG as a backup redundant recording. The only time I've ever needed the backup was for audio problems on the external recorder. The video stream has never failed me.

I see two scenarios that are pretty de riguer, these days. Some clients don't want post grading. Some clients do. That determines what Slog or HG gamma I use. I would always fall back on RAW for those clients that are OK with post CC, except for the data rate and cost of R5 media. For critical applications, art workflows, RAW is always my preferred method. For most clients who don't need 4K, I'm seriously considering using SR. It's so easily gradeable and the chroma is the best I've seen. I've not had to pull a key with SR, yet, but, I beleive it should be relatively painless.
 
Last edited:
Personally I think recording 4k ProRes to an external recorder is a bit silly - the datarate is virtually the same as 4k raw on the R5. And if you've got the resources and storage for that much data, why not get all the benefits that raw recording offers?
 
two reasons:
1-direct ingest of ProRes 444 or DNxHR444 into Avid-no transcoding needed
2-cost of storage media. At a street price of $1300 for 128GB, I can't afford many XD cards.
(3-if needed, I can record Custom Mode 4K with WB, color temp, color matrix available, unlike RAW CineEI mode)
 
cuervo said:
two reasons:
1-direct ingest of ProRes 444 or DNxHR444 into Avid-no transcoding needed
2-cost of storage media. At a street price of $1300 for 128GB, I can't afford many XD cards.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Though the proxy files you can record on your SxS cards whilst shooting raw also let you ingest directly to the Avid without transcoding either (or requiring the grunt needed to edit the 4k directly).
 
Grug said:
Fair enough. Though the proxy files you can record on your SxS cards whilst shooting raw also let you ingest directly to the Avid without transcoding either (or requiring the grunt needed to edit the 4k directly).
Click to expand...

hmmmm...just an FYI, Grug, as things stand, right now in MC v8.3, I can AMA link Sony RAW, SR, MPEG50, and XAVC almost instantaneously. All of these, including the MPEG proxy(MPEG50) still need to be transcoded to the Avid native codec before I can do more than just cut the footage. Injesting Prores or DNxHD/HR is a very fast rewrapping process, not a transcoding process.
 
Ah, so you're also grading/finishing in the Avid? That'd make a difference.

For the two projects I shot last year that were pushed through the Avid for editing (one in 4K raw, one in SR444) they ingested the MPEG50 for editing the 4k project then spat out an AAF for us to conform with the 4k raw files for the grade in Resolve. For the SR444 project I was told they edited natively with the SR files, then did the grade in Symphony. I wasn't there for the edits, but I was told there weren't any issues with having to transcode or mess around with either project - which was particularly annoying after having transcoded the entire SR444 project to DNxHD proxies because I was worried they wouldn't be able to work with the SR files!:p
 
cuervo said:
Yes, shooting 4K XAVC, the F5(with the 4k upgrade)will output 4K on 3G HDSDI Main. The O7Q WILL record 4K Prores HQ with 4K Prores 444XQ promised to come. All things being equal, this should rival the SR codec provided the input signal is RGB.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Are you sure CD has said it will implement 4444 XQ at either 1080, 2K or 4K to the 7Q? I can't find any evidence of this. Like you said, it would beat the SR codec and would certainly make an interesting option to add to the arsenal. I've not purchased the 4K upgrade yet, but I will after the CBK board is installed.

cuervo said:
Your concern for bricking your F5 is groundless. I've never heard of any external recorder doing that; and I've been using external recorders for a decade. It's possible that an external recorder may malfunction and not record properly, but, I've always used the onboard XAVC/AVC/or MPEG as a backup redundant recording. The only time I've ever needed the backup was for audio problems on the external recorder. The video stream has never failed me.
Click to expand...

Some people have luck, some don't. Knowing my luck some actor would run past the cable and yank it out, or worse. The whole point of buying the F5 for me was to avoid external recorders. If I go with an external recorder, I might as well just use my old F3.
 
JackCarter said:
Very interesting. Are you sure CD has said it will implement 4444 XQ at either 1080, 2K or 4K to the 7Q? I can't find any evidence of this. Like you said, it would beat the SR codec and would certainly make an interesting option to add to the arsenal. I've not purchased the 4K upgrade yet, but I will after the CBK board is installed.
Click to expand...

I've been told, unofficially that it's on their roadmap. No promises, just that they're working on it. see this thread:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?333296-Mitch-Gross-Prores-4444
Who knows, It may or may not ever get here. One reason I mention it here is with the hopes that as more people ask them for it, it will become more of a priority for them.



JackCarter said:
Some people have luck, some don't. Knowing my luck some actor would run past the cable and yank it out, or worse. The whole point of buying the F5 for me was to avoid external recorders. If I go with an external recorder, I might as well just use my old F3.
Click to expand...
I understand.:badputer:
 
Last edited:
The SR codec is arguably the best codec.

Although it obviously doesn't enjoy the same market penetration it's better than ProRes. It's Sony's own fault that it's not more used in the industry. The "unpopularity" has everything to do with Sony not making it easy for 3rd parties to support it and the fact it's only available in the higher end cameras and nothing to do with it's quality. SR-HQ 12-bit 4:4:4 is a delight and a great alternative to shooting uncompressed or even raw.

For all intents and purposes it's as good as uncompressed.
 
Aaveum said:
The SR codec is arguably the best codec.

Although it obviously doesn't enjoy the same market penetration it's better than ProRes. It's Sony's own fault that it's not more used in the industry. The "unpopularity" has everything to do with Sony not making it easy for 3rd parties to support it and the fact it's only available in the higher end cameras and nothing to do with it's quality. SR-HQ 12-bit 4:4:4 is a delight and a great alternative to shooting uncompressed or even raw.

For all intents and purposes it's as good as uncompressed.
Click to expand...

But when you're limited to 1080p with ZERO off-speed recording ability, there's simply too many shots you can't capture with SR444. Most ProRes-caple cameras give you drag and drop editing (a huge simplifier over the painful folders-within-folders structure of SR444), and they give you 1-whatever fps the camera can support without having to change formats or recording codecs. Their simply simpler - and that counts for a lot in production, it's one less thing to go wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top