Sony NEX/Axx Firmware hacking
- Thread starter Nexus7
- Start date
someone1.00
Member
I want to thank you. You are the only person who really try to find a way to help. I red kickstarter's term or use. Rules and conduct part is not applicable. Nobody will even try to think agains this manufacturer.
And about whole story with PS an PSP... It was not unbreakable. Holes in games allows some user mode homebrew. If we'll have an ability to execute user code inside the camera it will be enough.
And one more thing. Sony was not open anything. Kernel that nobody able to compile cannot help to work with device. It can help with emulation and i hoped to find somebody with appropriate knowledge to do this. That was a dream.
And about whole story with PS an PSP... It was not unbreakable. Holes in games allows some user mode homebrew. If we'll have an ability to execute user code inside the camera it will be enough.
And one more thing. Sony was not open anything. Kernel that nobody able to compile cannot help to work with device. It can help with emulation and i hoped to find somebody with appropriate knowledge to do this. That was a dream.
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rawfa
Veteran
Can´t you get your friend to share his findings here? One of the reasons why Vitaly was so successful with his hacks was that the entire process eventually became a big collaboration between people.
As for Sony, I´m no layer but what is being said here doen´t make much sense. If I buy a car and I want to make changes to the motor and share these changes it is not against the law. Panasonic if fully aware that their cameras are being hacked left and right and you don´t see anybody being sued. I don´t mean to be a troll but it sounds like people are creating too many obstacles for something that is not that hard (I don´t mean the hack, I mean the process of getting the cameras and more people to assist). Vitaly has his own website and people donate there. I´m sure there are tons of alternatives to Kickstart if the project infringes the rules (which I really don´t think it does)
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someone1.00
Member
Thats cool! Good luck to your "friend".
sibero80
Member
Well, both ends have a piece of reasoning to it.
For example, all cars work "similarly" but for instance, a fuel saving feature in the inyection system might constitute a trade secred embedded in the inyection computer...
manufacturers do their best at conceiling and ecripting their secrets.. not because iniciatives like this... but to protect them from other compaines attempting to copy their ways..
Obviously rivaling companies have endless resources to reverse-engeneer competing products... that's why patents where invented, so even if the competition gets the now-how... YOUR COMPANY OWNS THAT KNOW HOW...
But as we've seen with Apple and Samsung... owning patents doesnt make you the rightful owner of that patent... nor does that stop other manufacturers from using it...
NOW, coming back to the car's example... if you are a fuel inyection computer developer... and you are working on a hack to make the engine more fuel efficient.... but it later turns out it also allows burglars to rob your car only using a cellphone..
you have a conflict of interests!
That's what happened with the Jailbreak and PS3 lawsuits.. because it would open the door for more bad things.. than good things... BUT, there is one thing people doesnt realize and its that GEOHOT could've won.. instead he decided to settle..
but legally speaking... he would've been able to win... but given that a entire industry (gaming) spins around a single device.. it was in sony's best interest to persue that lawsuit at all costs...
Now, back to cameras...
Fortunatelly cameras dont have a depeding software industry... withouth hacking a camera you can use whatever lens you want.. whatever battery/memmory/strap/tripod... ETC...
The only thing camera manufacurers have to protect is their own camera bussines...
and here is where the thin ice comes... and its a thin ice for the manufacturers..
because they are purposely crippling their cameras and keeping all their power in chains... take for example the T2i.. a 600 dollar camera... If a hack would allow it to send a 4:4:4 signal HDMI out at 12Bit... you buy an external recorder for 1500... an audio recorder... and you have yourself a 3000 mini alexa....
So they dont want people unleashing their potential.... BUT here's the issue.... YOU OWN THE HARDWARE... and by exploiting it you are not affecting anyone else but the manufacturer that sold you the camera... who you already gave money...
So camenara manufacturers CANT take to court a case because you reverse engeneerd your camera's software... because eventually, in court an very important question will come up..
Why are you purposely seelling crippled cameras?
That takes me back to a lawsuit apple faced witht he first iPod... People were complaining that if your iPod's battery died.. apple told you to buy another one!! they didnt offer a way to replace it! and the LOST the lawsuit!
http://www.ipodsdirtysecret.com/message.html
So, camera manufacturers WONT make any move, because they know they are KNOWINGLY crippling their cameras... and indirectly forcing people to buy new cameras for features that are potentially possible in cheaper and available cameras...
And that's quite a risk for them to take... take verizon for example.. the just had to pay a 1.5M settlement to the FCC for charging a $20 monthly fee just to allow you to used thetering on your phone!! and they are already charging you for the data you consume!
So unless you are SELLING something that isnt yours(code)... or you are allowing people to do somethin ILLEGAL because of your actions... there is risk of things going wrong... but in this case, none of the latter apply..
So I would be confident on following this thorugh.
A valid disclaimer in a possible kickstarter iniciative would be:
- This investigation WONT disclose any trade secrets or software.
- This investigation ONLY purpose will be to find out what are the real capabilities of the HARDWARE in the camera. (you OWN the hardware).
That way there is ABSOLUTELY nothing sony or kickstarter could do... you are being paid to study hardware you bought!
The only disclaimer about that, is that if you open your camera.. you will face risk of shocking.. and void your warranty!
For example, all cars work "similarly" but for instance, a fuel saving feature in the inyection system might constitute a trade secred embedded in the inyection computer...
manufacturers do their best at conceiling and ecripting their secrets.. not because iniciatives like this... but to protect them from other compaines attempting to copy their ways..
Obviously rivaling companies have endless resources to reverse-engeneer competing products... that's why patents where invented, so even if the competition gets the now-how... YOUR COMPANY OWNS THAT KNOW HOW...
But as we've seen with Apple and Samsung... owning patents doesnt make you the rightful owner of that patent... nor does that stop other manufacturers from using it...
NOW, coming back to the car's example... if you are a fuel inyection computer developer... and you are working on a hack to make the engine more fuel efficient.... but it later turns out it also allows burglars to rob your car only using a cellphone..
you have a conflict of interests!
That's what happened with the Jailbreak and PS3 lawsuits.. because it would open the door for more bad things.. than good things... BUT, there is one thing people doesnt realize and its that GEOHOT could've won.. instead he decided to settle..
but legally speaking... he would've been able to win... but given that a entire industry (gaming) spins around a single device.. it was in sony's best interest to persue that lawsuit at all costs...
Now, back to cameras...
Fortunatelly cameras dont have a depeding software industry... withouth hacking a camera you can use whatever lens you want.. whatever battery/memmory/strap/tripod... ETC...
The only thing camera manufacurers have to protect is their own camera bussines...
and here is where the thin ice comes... and its a thin ice for the manufacturers..
because they are purposely crippling their cameras and keeping all their power in chains... take for example the T2i.. a 600 dollar camera... If a hack would allow it to send a 4:4:4 signal HDMI out at 12Bit... you buy an external recorder for 1500... an audio recorder... and you have yourself a 3000 mini alexa....
So they dont want people unleashing their potential.... BUT here's the issue.... YOU OWN THE HARDWARE... and by exploiting it you are not affecting anyone else but the manufacturer that sold you the camera... who you already gave money...
So camenara manufacturers CANT take to court a case because you reverse engeneerd your camera's software... because eventually, in court an very important question will come up..
Why are you purposely seelling crippled cameras?
That takes me back to a lawsuit apple faced witht he first iPod... People were complaining that if your iPod's battery died.. apple told you to buy another one!! they didnt offer a way to replace it! and the LOST the lawsuit!
http://www.ipodsdirtysecret.com/message.html
So, camera manufacturers WONT make any move, because they know they are KNOWINGLY crippling their cameras... and indirectly forcing people to buy new cameras for features that are potentially possible in cheaper and available cameras...
And that's quite a risk for them to take... take verizon for example.. the just had to pay a 1.5M settlement to the FCC for charging a $20 monthly fee just to allow you to used thetering on your phone!! and they are already charging you for the data you consume!
So unless you are SELLING something that isnt yours(code)... or you are allowing people to do somethin ILLEGAL because of your actions... there is risk of things going wrong... but in this case, none of the latter apply..
So I would be confident on following this thorugh.
A valid disclaimer in a possible kickstarter iniciative would be:
- This investigation WONT disclose any trade secrets or software.
- This investigation ONLY purpose will be to find out what are the real capabilities of the HARDWARE in the camera. (you OWN the hardware).
That way there is ABSOLUTELY nothing sony or kickstarter could do... you are being paid to study hardware you bought!
The only disclaimer about that, is that if you open your camera.. you will face risk of shocking.. and void your warranty!
sibero80
Member
I underestand the heat issue... but I can risk to state that most filmmakers wont be needing more than 4-5 minute clips.
Darn.. in my life I have ever recorded a clip longer than 10 minutes with my 7D!
And people would be warned... MORE QUALITY = LESS RECORDING TIME... and that will be their choice..
Furthermore cameras have a thermal sensor, so safety measures can still protect the hardware...
looks like it's heated up. I'd donate £100 for a bitrate improvement, even from 24mb/s to 35mb/s would be amazing. what fits in the 24mb/s quota is superb, a 30% increase in bottle neck width would be ideal! users of the nex fs100 i'm sure would also welcome this option for in camera recording where compressed footage is ok, but they might want a little more headroom.
My nex 5n camera housing has forced fan cooling and doesnt overheat any more. I'm sure it would keep a overclocked nex 5n happy too!
If someone manages to unleash this, I'll offer a free nex 5n cine housing to them:- http://www.eoshd.com/content/8556/nex-5n-cine-housing-now-available-to-pre-order
My nex 5n camera housing has forced fan cooling and doesnt overheat any more. I'm sure it would keep a overclocked nex 5n happy too!
If someone manages to unleash this, I'll offer a free nex 5n cine housing to them:- http://www.eoshd.com/content/8556/nex-5n-cine-housing-now-available-to-pre-order
sibero80
Member
On a side note, I've been digging on Geohot's case, because I wanted to know exactly what were Sony's claims, and what I found is very reasuring for this iniciative:
And its exactly what I was hoping to find! they didnt sue him because of what he was doing, but because what it allowed in relation with copyrighted material (Games!).
So basically, they did what they did only to prevent piracy from happening.
And since camera firmware isnt the gateway for any kind of copyrighted material... I think developers in this area have nothing to fear!
There is though, one thing Im affraid of...
And its that camera manufacturers realize that custom firmwares are a profitable bussines... and they develop advanced firmwares and offer them as paid upgrades, as sony does in some cases with some of its pro-line equipment...
In that case, any attempt of a custom-independent firmware, could be flagged as piracy of some sort...
So while this isnt a reality yet... actions should be taken while we can... so.. I hope someone1.00 would reconsider the Kickstarter iniciative.
Edit:
Added source:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/04/sony-settles-ps3-lawsuit/
And its exactly what I was hoping to find! they didnt sue him because of what he was doing, but because what it allowed in relation with copyrighted material (Games!).
So basically, they did what they did only to prevent piracy from happening.
And since camera firmware isnt the gateway for any kind of copyrighted material... I think developers in this area have nothing to fear!
There is though, one thing Im affraid of...
And its that camera manufacturers realize that custom firmwares are a profitable bussines... and they develop advanced firmwares and offer them as paid upgrades, as sony does in some cases with some of its pro-line equipment...
In that case, any attempt of a custom-independent firmware, could be flagged as piracy of some sort...
So while this isnt a reality yet... actions should be taken while we can... so.. I hope someone1.00 would reconsider the Kickstarter iniciative.
Edit:
Added source:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/04/sony-settles-ps3-lawsuit/
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someone1.00
Member
I cannot see differences in Geohot's case and potential camera case. In both cases the copyrighted contend. In PS case it was a specific processor. In camera it's the algo. As i already mentioned i do not want to check this by myself.
I cannot see general differences between kikstarter and paypal donate button. The only difference is that bakers will receives they money back if budget will not be filled on time.
Some person with locked private messages contacted me via PM. I cannot respond.
I cannot see general differences between kikstarter and paypal donate button. The only difference is that bakers will receives they money back if budget will not be filled on time.
Some person with locked private messages contacted me via PM. I cannot respond.
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I'm just wondering how this will help? Looking at the sources, almost everything camera-specific seems to live in user land (and thus sources don't have to be distributed for them). The kernel itself looks pretty standard.
someone1.00
Member
This helps with tracing. The kernel itself will be a step forward.
And about camera specific drivers. They cannot run in user mode. All the drivers resides in rootfs that is visible on my video. All of them shold be replaced with stubs in the future to trace user mode modules. Generally this helps to check suggestions without camera at all. Not an easy way but without lot of free money is the only way to try any idea. Camera has no gdb inside. At least in firmware.
if this kernel is an ordinal one like in any hacked arm router it should not be difficult to compile it and run under the emulator. But it's not completely the same.
One side question. Can they copyright the kernel? They added some changes to it but general license cannot be changed...
And about camera specific drivers. They cannot run in user mode. All the drivers resides in rootfs that is visible on my video. All of them shold be replaced with stubs in the future to trace user mode modules. Generally this helps to check suggestions without camera at all. Not an easy way but without lot of free money is the only way to try any idea. Camera has no gdb inside. At least in firmware.
if this kernel is an ordinal one like in any hacked arm router it should not be difficult to compile it and run under the emulator. But it's not completely the same.
One side question. Can they copyright the kernel? They added some changes to it but general license cannot be changed...
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sibero80
Member
I asked out in the Magic Lanter forum about the legality of reverse engeneering, their answer is VERY conforting:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=1857.0
There is a pending question about the funding method I proposed, so lets see what he comes up with.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=1857.0
There is a pending question about the funding method I proposed, so lets see what he comes up with.
I would also gladly donate to have more features on the 5N. It's a superb camera, and coupled with features similar to those of Magic Lantern (on Canon cameras), it would become one heck of a small beast!
To my knowledge, Sony can't sue unless you're either infringing some of the copyrights (such as making any encrypted code openly available to the general public) or if you sell it (donations are allowed).
Another similar case was that of jailbreaking Apple devices, and Apple lost that one.
To my knowledge, Sony can't sue unless you're either infringing some of the copyrights (such as making any encrypted code openly available to the general public) or if you sell it (donations are allowed).
Another similar case was that of jailbreaking Apple devices, and Apple lost that one.
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
It is good to see that discussion went into constructive way. Initially it had been slightly offroad.
ML guys told you good things. I'll tell you almost the same. Want to add only that DCMA can be also used if you post some closed information, not only code.
I think approach must be simple. Make small tool for one exact camera that proove that it will work. Simple text hack, as we did on Nikon is enough. It is 100% safe.
After this we could seriously talk about bodies, and I'll be glad to help.
ML guys told you good things. I'll tell you almost the same. Want to add only that DCMA can be also used if you post some closed information, not only code.
I think approach must be simple. Make small tool for one exact camera that proove that it will work. Simple text hack, as we did on Nikon is enough. It is 100% safe.
After this we could seriously talk about bodies, and I'll be glad to help.
Based on the talk here, I'd like to understand how one goes about modifying the functions of a camera by means of a software hack.
Re. avchd/h264 bitrate - Will Sony have had a user interface which allows them to set frame rates, bitrates and codecs, changing them infinitely during development of the camera? In this case, will thay have chosen 24mb/s avchd for optimum file size/heat build up/system stability? If someone were to hack and write a user interface (operated via pc attached to camera via USB), would it be possible for the end user to adjust these paramters themselves? Change the background images used on the camera UI?, remove the crop and dials/rec time info which is displayed on screen during recording? - It is crazy because I have been doing some testing and if you set your camera to 3200iso and record a dark scene, then play it back straight after, the footage is a lot cleaner during recording than during playback afterwards - meaning the live view is fed before any compression takes place.
also I am confused because I read on wikipedia that AVCHD is a maximum of 28mb/s bitrate. would the hack actually tweek the AVCHD codec into a modified form to allow higher bitrates? I assume the GH2 still outputs a AVCHD file? if not, is it now MJpeg? I think even 28mb/s during 25p would be a nice little gain over the current 24mb/s.
As said before, I'd be happy to donate to this cause, it is both exciting in technical terms and interesting because a lot of the talk here is going right over my head. - I couldnt make sense of what was being done on Someone1.00's video a few pages ago.. looks deep
As said by many before me. I am not looking for more detail - I like the look of the footage out of the camera as standard, and 4:2:2 is not that important to me either - a bonus for future green screen work maybe, but not a deal breaker. But a lovely compressed avchd file maybe increased to 35mb/s would be a welcome change and would I'd think help out in fighting against some of the macro blocking that can sometimes occur on less detailed areas when shooting quite complex of dynamic scenes.
Re. avchd/h264 bitrate - Will Sony have had a user interface which allows them to set frame rates, bitrates and codecs, changing them infinitely during development of the camera? In this case, will thay have chosen 24mb/s avchd for optimum file size/heat build up/system stability? If someone were to hack and write a user interface (operated via pc attached to camera via USB), would it be possible for the end user to adjust these paramters themselves? Change the background images used on the camera UI?, remove the crop and dials/rec time info which is displayed on screen during recording? - It is crazy because I have been doing some testing and if you set your camera to 3200iso and record a dark scene, then play it back straight after, the footage is a lot cleaner during recording than during playback afterwards - meaning the live view is fed before any compression takes place.
also I am confused because I read on wikipedia that AVCHD is a maximum of 28mb/s bitrate. would the hack actually tweek the AVCHD codec into a modified form to allow higher bitrates? I assume the GH2 still outputs a AVCHD file? if not, is it now MJpeg? I think even 28mb/s during 25p would be a nice little gain over the current 24mb/s.
As said before, I'd be happy to donate to this cause, it is both exciting in technical terms and interesting because a lot of the talk here is going right over my head. - I couldnt make sense of what was being done on Someone1.00's video a few pages ago.. looks deep
As said by many before me. I am not looking for more detail - I like the look of the footage out of the camera as standard, and 4:2:2 is not that important to me either - a bonus for future green screen work maybe, but not a deal breaker. But a lovely compressed avchd file maybe increased to 35mb/s would be a welcome change and would I'd think help out in fighting against some of the macro blocking that can sometimes occur on less detailed areas when shooting quite complex of dynamic scenes.
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Right then. Ill start by saying I have actually been waiting for this for a long time, but all I can say now is that its do-able and I dont know what all the fuss was about 
(I can say that because I had no part in it!!). Got a bit excited seeing it myself tonight. My job here is done and I am going to post something on here soon as he wont! Did I say I was a tiny bit excited????????
edit: one of the tests was showing av 46mbps and topped out at 9 mins 23! little room, summer evening! Dark room with 1.8 50mm looked very nice.
(I can say that because I had no part in it!!). Got a bit excited seeing it myself tonight. My job here is done and I am going to post something on here soon as he wont! Did I say I was a tiny bit excited????????edit: one of the tests was showing av 46mbps and topped out at 9 mins 23! little room, summer evening! Dark room with 1.8 50mm looked very nice.
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rawfa
Veteran
Right then. Ill start by saying I have actually been waiting for this for a long time, but all I can say now is that its do-able and I dont know what all the fuss was about
edit: one of the tests was showing av 46mbps and topped out at 9 mins 23! little room, summer evening! Dark room with 1.8 50mm looked very nice.
Dude, if you´re pulling our legs they will be a bounty on your head. Post post post!!! 46bmps from a NEX would be freaking sweaaaat!
A specific new thread on the progress could be useful.. actually I don't know where to look: dvxuser, dpreview, sonyalpharumors, etc.. an official development in only one forum should be better.
I think there's really lots of people hoping to enanche their beloved Nex camera.
I'm one for sure, ready to donate on a good project.
My hopes:
- Higher bitrates
- Clean HDMI
- Timelapse
- International FPS (24-25-50-60)
I think there's really lots of people hoping to enanche their beloved Nex camera.
I'm one for sure, ready to donate on a good project.
My hopes:
- Higher bitrates
- Clean HDMI
- Timelapse
- International FPS (24-25-50-60)
someone1.00
Member
You can start a new forum if you want to. I dont mind. Currently it's the only thread with technical details. Rummors and dpreview threads both dead