Harry Lime
Well-known member
No, 6k RAW is brutally sharp. Most of us shoot people, not test charts.
Even at 6k I predict a bump in sales of diffusion filters and vintage glass.
Other: Sony full frame unveiled, named "VENICE"
- Thread starter starcentral
- Start date
No, 6k RAW is brutally sharp. Most of us shoot people, not test charts.
Even at 6k I predict a bump in sales of diffusion filters and vintage glass.
starcentral
Veteran
probably since slog3 was designed to hold more dynamic range.
A tiny bit of footage here, unless they made the promo using Alexa :beer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj3P1cc2e64
Grug
Veteran
Very interesting camera, here's my initial thoughts
Pros:
- A NAME! A nice, simple, easy to remember name!
- Love the size, weight layout and what appears to be a great user interface.
- Love the 8-step/stops of internal ND! (huge time-saver on set, and one less filter box to lug around)
- Love the PL + hidden e-mount setup, that offers massive flexibility.
- It sounds like the new colour science will be calling back towards the F35's colour science, and that's a GREAT thing.
- Proper ProRes Proxy proxy recording! (paired with raw/XOCN, this is the best post-workflow there is!)
- Latitude sounds great, 6 stops over 9 stops under at 500 ISO. If the sensor is as clean as suggested, then pushing a stop to 1000 ISO with 7 over 8 under, or to 2000 ISO for 8 over 7 under should be fine.
- Proper white balance flexibility.
- Compatibility with F5(5) baseplates/accessories.
Cons:
- Nothing better than 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording??? This is quite disappointing. At least give us 12-bit ProRes4444 or some new 12-bit XAVC variant internally.
- Not reaching 48fps in full-frame is pretty disappointing. 1-48fps covers 99% of most shooting needs (I wonder if you'll be able to use the full 6k sensor, downsampled to 4k and then record 1-48fps?).
- No built-in wireless integration for FIZ control or wireless video
- Additional licences for full-sensor and anamorphic recording is annoying.
Questions:
- Framerate options when recording at lower resolutions (3k? 2k? HD?), will be interesting to see what happens here.
- How soon till they bring out a newer recorder to supersede the R7 and offer HFR with the Venice (which would seem the obvious path here)?
- Will autofocus or remote electronic lens control eventually come for the e-mount? This could be a biggie for drone/gimbal work.
Pros:
- A NAME! A nice, simple, easy to remember name!
- Love the size, weight layout and what appears to be a great user interface.
- Love the 8-step/stops of internal ND! (huge time-saver on set, and one less filter box to lug around)
- Love the PL + hidden e-mount setup, that offers massive flexibility.
- It sounds like the new colour science will be calling back towards the F35's colour science, and that's a GREAT thing.
- Proper ProRes Proxy proxy recording! (paired with raw/XOCN, this is the best post-workflow there is!)
- Latitude sounds great, 6 stops over 9 stops under at 500 ISO. If the sensor is as clean as suggested, then pushing a stop to 1000 ISO with 7 over 8 under, or to 2000 ISO for 8 over 7 under should be fine.
- Proper white balance flexibility.
- Compatibility with F5(5) baseplates/accessories.
Cons:
- Nothing better than 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording??? This is quite disappointing. At least give us 12-bit ProRes4444 or some new 12-bit XAVC variant internally.
- Not reaching 48fps in full-frame is pretty disappointing. 1-48fps covers 99% of most shooting needs (I wonder if you'll be able to use the full 6k sensor, downsampled to 4k and then record 1-48fps?).
- No built-in wireless integration for FIZ control or wireless video
- Additional licences for full-sensor and anamorphic recording is annoying.
Questions:
- Framerate options when recording at lower resolutions (3k? 2k? HD?), will be interesting to see what happens here.
- How soon till they bring out a newer recorder to supersede the R7 and offer HFR with the Venice (which would seem the obvious path here)?
- Will autofocus or remote electronic lens control eventually come for the e-mount? This could be a biggie for drone/gimbal work.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
Just got back from the Sony event on the Sony lot.
I have jumped ship to Arri a while back, but I have to say it looks like Sony has listened to DPs and implemented some changes. I'd love to see Sony make a great camera.
A few of the points they harped on repeatedly were:
1-New color processing internally, new look.
2-Simplified menus
3-Any lens you want, E mount to anamorphic
The Kosinski and Miranda short they showed, "The Dig", was far better than anything I've seen out of a Sony camera. In the "roundtable" discussion after viewing, Miranda mainly spoke of the fact that when they flew him out to get his input, he just asked for "a more homey" approach to color. I knew what he meant. Both Arri and Red eschew color accuracy for the pleasingness of film. It looks like Sony is following suit, and Im glad. I'm sure some will not care for it. But if you told me The Dig was shot on an Alexa, I would have believed you. Not many shots stressed the dynamic range, except for a few shots into the sun, which looked great. That's one of the things I personally look for on a cam these days, what does firing into the late day sun look like, and what do flames look like?
Based on a few short questions with a Sony rep stationed with a demo camera, it looks like the sensor that ships with the camera will be limited to 60fps. That's a huge bummer if accurate. 18 months and $10k to get past 60fps is a long time and a lot of money. Both are guesses, but I have experience with Sony so I'd put a fiver on those.
It was unclear, but it looked like there may not be a 444 codec internal to the body; it seemed X-OCN is the codec if you want that and you'd need an R7 on the back to do it.
Bonus: I noticed there seem to be 3 or 4 monitoring paths on the camera. SDI 1+2, SDI 3+4, Mon Out, and HDMI out (plus EVF). So DIT can get a Log feed, ACs can get a 709 feed with data, and director can get a clean feed without overlays. That's a major selling point of the Alexa SXT, and if Sony is able to do it too that's a big win.
Also, something that's huge to me, camera data is outside picture area on SDI out finally. I always hated having characters all over my picture and trying to avoid lights on edge of frame, etc. Pet peeve. I did not get a chance to ask if there is proper look-around on the monitor paths.
That's all I can think of for now.
Here here. I have no idea why people want so many pixels; in my experience only a few types of work really need them. You give a director and editor too many pixels and they start reframing your shots. It’s not fun.
I know it’s tiresome to hear how LA does it, but that’s been going on here now for almost two years. If you have a rehoused set of Cooke Panchros or Baltars you’re printing money. No joke.
[edit: oh, btw, $42K. They made a big deal about that on the big screen, so it's not a rumor or a guess. And there was a wink from PC that 42 is MSRP, and MAP will be lower. But the EL200 is what, prob $5k and the AXSR7 is 7K, so you'll be at 53 or 55 with this camera without any problem. Plus media. Which is, I'm sure not very coincidentally at all, the price for an Alexa Mini]
I have jumped ship to Arri a while back, but I have to say it looks like Sony has listened to DPs and implemented some changes. I'd love to see Sony make a great camera.
A few of the points they harped on repeatedly were:
1-New color processing internally, new look.
2-Simplified menus
3-Any lens you want, E mount to anamorphic
The Kosinski and Miranda short they showed, "The Dig", was far better than anything I've seen out of a Sony camera. In the "roundtable" discussion after viewing, Miranda mainly spoke of the fact that when they flew him out to get his input, he just asked for "a more homey" approach to color. I knew what he meant. Both Arri and Red eschew color accuracy for the pleasingness of film. It looks like Sony is following suit, and Im glad. I'm sure some will not care for it. But if you told me The Dig was shot on an Alexa, I would have believed you. Not many shots stressed the dynamic range, except for a few shots into the sun, which looked great. That's one of the things I personally look for on a cam these days, what does firing into the late day sun look like, and what do flames look like?
Based on a few short questions with a Sony rep stationed with a demo camera, it looks like the sensor that ships with the camera will be limited to 60fps. That's a huge bummer if accurate. 18 months and $10k to get past 60fps is a long time and a lot of money. Both are guesses, but I have experience with Sony so I'd put a fiver on those.
It was unclear, but it looked like there may not be a 444 codec internal to the body; it seemed X-OCN is the codec if you want that and you'd need an R7 on the back to do it.
Bonus: I noticed there seem to be 3 or 4 monitoring paths on the camera. SDI 1+2, SDI 3+4, Mon Out, and HDMI out (plus EVF). So DIT can get a Log feed, ACs can get a 709 feed with data, and director can get a clean feed without overlays. That's a major selling point of the Alexa SXT, and if Sony is able to do it too that's a big win.
Also, something that's huge to me, camera data is outside picture area on SDI out finally. I always hated having characters all over my picture and trying to avoid lights on edge of frame, etc. Pet peeve. I did not get a chance to ask if there is proper look-around on the monitor paths.
That's all I can think of for now.
Here here. I have no idea why people want so many pixels; in my experience only a few types of work really need them. You give a director and editor too many pixels and they start reframing your shots. It’s not fun.
I know it’s tiresome to hear how LA does it, but that’s been going on here now for almost two years. If you have a rehoused set of Cooke Panchros or Baltars you’re printing money. No joke.
[edit: oh, btw, $42K. They made a big deal about that on the big screen, so it's not a rumor or a guess. And there was a wink from PC that 42 is MSRP, and MAP will be lower. But the EL200 is what, prob $5k and the AXSR7 is 7K, so you'll be at 53 or 55 with this camera without any problem. Plus media. Which is, I'm sure not very coincidentally at all, the price for an Alexa Mini]
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Nate Weaver
Veteran
One other thing, I was surprised they didn't partner with somebody to get FIZ built in.
Even with Arri and CMotion being so tight, I'm sure they could have talked CMotion into working together.
On Alexa jobs, using the WCU4 because it's all built in has become almost standard these days. It's really easy for me to just toss the handset and 1 motor in the AKS case just to have around in case you need, even if it's a simple job and there's no reason to pack the FIZ kit.
So yeah, little bummer there.
Even with Arri and CMotion being so tight, I'm sure they could have talked CMotion into working together.
On Alexa jobs, using the WCU4 because it's all built in has become almost standard these days. It's really easy for me to just toss the handset and 1 motor in the AKS case just to have around in case you need, even if it's a simple job and there's no reason to pack the FIZ kit.
So yeah, little bummer there.
Grug
Veteran
Thanks Nate.
It does sound good, and the pricing is appealing. Do I feel any desire to switch out my Studio for it? Not really, no. Being able to use my CZ.2s properly is probably the biggest appeal, but losing the framerate options, and optical viewfinder of the Alexa would suck, and losing the simplicity of the WCU-4 and the Plus module would be frustrating too.
Getting that much image quality at 1/3 of the weight of Arri does have a certain appeal though!
It does sound good, and the pricing is appealing. Do I feel any desire to switch out my Studio for it? Not really, no. Being able to use my CZ.2s properly is probably the biggest appeal, but losing the framerate options, and optical viewfinder of the Alexa would suck, and losing the simplicity of the WCU-4 and the Plus module would be frustrating too.
Getting that much image quality at 1/3 of the weight of Arri does have a certain appeal though!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
"Camera think"
Praising having a load of monitor outs.
Why not a built in transmitter - In fact two - one for low latency to production monitors and another for iPads
Praising having a load of monitor outs.
Why not a built in transmitter - In fact two - one for low latency to production monitors and another for iPads
Nate Weaver
Veteran
One more thought before I pack it in:
Full frame modes on this camera will not come until Fall 2018. It's only really then that the real value proposition on this camera will be known. And even then, it takes months for people to try it out once its avail and get a handle on if it's a genuine improvement for dynamic range and noise or not.
So in the short term, it's a nice upgrade for jobs that would have gone F55. But not much else.
The entire reason we're wading off into the full frame world is the promise of better dynamic range and lower noise. And we won't even know where we stand on that with this camera for almost a year from now.
Full frame modes on this camera will not come until Fall 2018. It's only really then that the real value proposition on this camera will be known. And even then, it takes months for people to try it out once its avail and get a handle on if it's a genuine improvement for dynamic range and noise or not.
So in the short term, it's a nice upgrade for jobs that would have gone F55. But not much else.
The entire reason we're wading off into the full frame world is the promise of better dynamic range and lower noise. And we won't even know where we stand on that with this camera for almost a year from now.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Better colors, according to Sony, and that's a big deal.
How would full frame give better dynamic range and lower noise? Alexa 65, medium format, four regular Alexa XT sensors stitched together. Assuming that's all there is to it, stitching sensors together has no reason to give better dynamic range and lower noise (aside from perhaps the noise appearing smaller when downscalling the image to 4K or 2K). I don't believe Arri has ever stated the 65 has better dynamic range and lower noise. It has higher resolution and a shallower depth of field (for better or for worse; Deakins states he generally prefers the depth of field characteristics of Super 35, hence why he chose Alexa XT for Blade Runner 2049 over the 65).
Now where you can get better dynamic range and lower noise is when you actually have larger pixels. Take the A7s, which at full frame and just 12 megapixels, became much better in low light than other still cameras that had say 35 megapixels and full frame.
With the Venice, switching from super 35 mode to full frame mode will not change the size of the pixels, and hence should not change the dynamic range or noise levels. It will just give you more resolution and different depth of field characteristics. The pixels will be larger than say a super 35 camera that shoots 6k, but will be smaller than say a 3.36 megapixel sensor super 35 camera (the Sony F3).
Alexa SXT W.
Yes, plus another $10K for the full frame and anamorphic licenses. It seems a full package without lens or batteries will be over $60K for sure.
Yes I also like that it seems they are going towards F35 color. At least this is what I hope they mean. But there are a few short shots in the intro video and they look very F65-ish to me though. But too little footage to tell. So we will see if they gave the new sensor some mojo or not. Sony desperately needs more mojo for their current high end cinema cameras.
Internal codecs and HFR are indeed a little bit of a downer. But if the image is great then I can live with that.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
starcentral [media=youtube said:
Camera Think.
I hate the way this film starts with a digital slate. It says to me.. 'Timecode is still a mess'
I hate waiting for a 2nd to clear frame at 600MBS.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Acceptable?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
When theyve finished transcoding it.
starcentral
Veteran
F65 remains in the current CineAlta lineup according to Sony, the Venice is just their new flagship cineAlta.
It basically means, they will keep it listed for sale, but no one will buy one. Used prices are already at $25k USD so I'd say they've already plummeted.
It basically means, they will keep it listed for sale, but no one will buy one. Used prices are already at $25k USD so I'd say they've already plummeted.
Wondering why the e mount shows it won't be ready until firmware 2.0 ?
And as for that base ISO of 500 -- according to the FD Times Special report linked from Sony's page...
"In addition, the sensitivity is changeable from 125 to 4,000. So we’ll see how cinematographers will decide to rate VENICE".
https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/FDTimes-Sony-VENICE-Special-Report.pdf
And as for that base ISO of 500 -- according to the FD Times Special report linked from Sony's page...
"In addition, the sensitivity is changeable from 125 to 4,000. So we’ll see how cinematographers will decide to rate VENICE".
https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/FDTimes-Sony-VENICE-Special-Report.pdf
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
They've been plummeting.
Most F65s are now owned by their second or third owner by now...who own it mostly because it's cheap compared to what you get spec-wise. I can imagine imagine the new Venice driving some F65 owners to sell. On the other hand, I wonder if it's a different market in the sense that most F65 owners would've probably bought an Alexa Mini or some other more modern camera if they had more money to invest in a higher price range. But F65 is well below that price range already.
I thought they would ..I should have taken some bets.. dont think that PL like E mount on the Fs7 was only for that camera ..