FS7: Sony FS7 Cine EI vs Custom
- Thread starter ReelFilmGeek
- Start date
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
I've come across a few people who believe the FS7 is a 14stop camera across all gamma curves so I wouldn't be surprised that some believe burning a lut is still giving them 14stops DR.
Liam Hall
Veteran
I had a beer with two cam ops and an editor last week for whom Slog3 and 709 etc were foreign concepts.
Exactly. There's so much misunderstanding of Slog and LUTs, particularly when it comes to exposure. Which is a shame because it's not difficult and if it was explained properly people would get much more out of their cameras. I blame camera forums
Just have a look at Sony official forum for FS7. People ask questions how they can take out burned 709 from their footage to get Slog (well, at least they understand that's a difference between them). There's a lot of misunderstandings with log's and especially with CineEI mode.
ReelFilmGeek
Well-known member
Another question is how important do you find cine EI mode? Reason is we are thinking of picking up a B cam and are options are another FS7 (probably a bit out of the budget), a Sony FS5 (near the top of the budget but no cine EI) or the Sony A7RII (Would also replace the still camera in studio but not a dedicated video mode and no cine ei right?)
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
The upside to baking in a LUT to Slog3 footage is to get a wide DR result. The bake process squeezes the 14 stops into a 7 stop clip but with nice highlight roll-off and colours. So it's more for when the alternativ would be to go into custom mode and fiddle with to many settings.
starcentral
Veteran
Most have already commented on the differences, so here's some additional information that might help guide you.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?329613-F5-F7-F55-CineEI-LUT-primer-quick-quide-amp-history
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...ce-possibilities-on-the-Sony-F-series-cameras
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
Alohype,
What's Canon Wide DR? Is that something the C300 shoots?
What's Canon Wide DR? Is that something the C300 shoots?
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Sort of like hyper gamma - just needs a small finish in the grade - but unlike HG does not look like puke?
starcentral
Veteran
They are gamma curves available on the Canon which give you more DR over traditional gamma curves outside of shooting Log curves. i.e.. same as on Sony HG7/8 gives you more DR over Standard gamma.
But with Sony you do have the option to shoot slog with baked LUT, which is accomplishing the same thing as Canon Wide DR.
Here's a job I did with three C100's using a Wide DR picture profile. These are slightly colored in photoshop for the purposes of posting still images but on the video the original CP8 profile was virtually left untouched and it looked amazing. I love Canon color I don't care what anyone says.
But with Sony you do have the option to shoot slog with baked LUT, which is accomplishing the same thing as Canon Wide DR.
Here's a job I did with three C100's using a Wide DR picture profile. These are slightly colored in photoshop for the purposes of posting still images but on the video the original CP8 profile was virtually left untouched and it looked amazing. I love Canon color I don't care what anyone says.
Liam Hall
Veteran
That would depend on the LUT.
starcentral
Veteran
True.
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
Hmm are you talking about making LUT's in LUTCalc to match Canon WideDR and or C-Log?
Have you worked with burning C-Log on the FS7? I started a thread last week that got no responses at all about the idea of using LUTCalc to make a C-Log LUT and burning that in to intercut with Canon C300 shooting C-Log.
To my eye the gamma looked similar, but the Canon had much more saturation and the color looked different so I wondered whether I needed to use a different gamut or just increase the saturation in my LUT. Have you played with that? Actually my client was happy and said he had a good match in post though I never saw it. But I really wanted to create a better match on set.
Great thread. I've had the FS7 for a couple months after shooting with the C300 for a few years. There is a lot to like about the FS7, but I really miss the flexibility of Wide DR. Cine EI, Slog 3 and a good LUT produce a beautiful image with a wide dynamic range, but ISO and WB are limited, sort of like film. With Wide DR or CLog, I could pick any ISO from 320 to 20000 in 1/3 stop increments and WB or select a Kelvin temperature from 2000K to 15000K. It feels like a step backward to have just one ISO and three color temps. I've been experimenting with Custom mode and Slog3 Gamma to regain some flexibility, but I haven't figured out a system for exposing that combination. I tried using a light meter, but ISO 2000 on a FS7 in Custom Slog3 does not correlate to ISO 2000 on any of my light meters.
Nirv
Carbonite Member
In LUTCalc there are Canon gamuts you can select which may get you closer. I don't have any idea how close you can get with them though.
You could match the colour of the clips in Resolve then export a LUT, analyse it in LUTCalc and use that gamut for a custom built LUT.
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
Yeah I just need to take the time to get both cameras together on the same shot and then I'll have my test footage to make a match.
Results to be posted in the future - one of these days.
Results to be posted in the future - one of these days.
starcentral
Veteran
I don't really like the custom mode on Sony, but others have managed to get it to work for themselves no problem.
Just a note:
custom mode = locked to old Sony color science called s-gamut. Here you can not have a full 14 stop capture unless you shoot s-log, but no "finished" look possible with 14 stops.
cineEI mode = new Sony color science called s-gamut3. Easy to grade, less color shifts when grading, savior of Sony color in the modern era. Here you can load a 3D LUT to bake a finished look into the image, and if it's a good LUT it will preserve the DR from the sensor into the final image. You, me and Leni agree that cineEI mode cripples the camera by not allowing custom WB or ISO adjustment settings. It means that cineEI mode really is destine for a post workflow.
So now you have to decide with old color science and no LUTs so you can have less post workflow, or new color science but some degree of post workflow. It's great Sony says they asked for input from world famous DOP's when building this camera from the ground up - it's quite obvious they "really" did do that. I wonder why they remain nameless.
Regarding the light meter there is little reason they will match, what you need to do is rate the ISO of the camera differently until your light meter and camera f-stop match. This is your new camera ISO rating and now when you meter you'll know exactly that middle grey is falling where you expect. Some meters let you introduce exposure compensation so if the mismatch of ISO's between meter and camera really bother you then use the exposure compensation on the meter until they match.