FS7: Sony FS7 Cine EI vs Custom

R

ReelFilmGeek

Well-known member
So my new job has us shooting on the Sony FS7 which we are new too using. We are trying to work with are editors to come up with the best solution workflow and are all debating on shooting in either

Cine EI with Slog 3,
Custom with Slog 3,
Cine EI with Slog 3 and applying the Rec709 lut in camera,
or Custom with the Rec709 profile.

Are editors are concerned about the white balance options when shooting in Cine EI (only having 3200, 4300, and 5500k) and wanted to know whats the major difference between cine EI and custom? We are working in a high turnaround workflow and are all discussion the best way to shoot with the camera,

thanks!
 
I would suggest buying Doug's Videos and watching them with your production staff, he really sums up the differences very well:

http://www.vortexmedia.com/DVD_FS7.html

After watching the vids then experiment a bit using Doug's info to find your best workflow.

My personal opinion is the absolute best results from the FS7 are from Cine IE. But the easiest quick turn around production is using Custom mode. I use custom mode 75% of the time. It all depends on your expectations and clients. There is no better way, just different ways.
 
I think this depends on..

Shoot.
The light levels
The scene lighting variance

Post.
The quality of the result you want
The 'competence' of the editor
The NLE the editor is using
The heft of their computer.

'Competence' of editor is a moot point because 'colourist' is not 'editor', there are amazing editors who cannot colour - but today many editors can pull a bit of colour work.

Can the Editor/NLE/Heft support addition of a LUT?
Can the editor swing a shot that is a little green or cool/warm?

If the answer to the above is yes (and you have reasonable light levels) then the answer is EI.
If the light levels are low you may want to test customSlog - this takes a bit more effort with colour butmay give better lowlight performance.

As the editor presents more 'no's' to the equation you probably want to move along a more baked path.

Moving down a more baked path will probably impact on the project in a negative manner visually.
 
ReelFilmGeek said:
Are editors are concerned about the white balance options when shooting in Cine EI (only having 3200, 4300, and 5500k) and wanted to know whats the major difference between cine EI and custom?
Click to expand...

Properly shot Slog3 doesn't have WB issues.

Think of Custom vs Cine EI as two different cameras. Custom mode is a traditional 'video' camera and Cine EI is a 'digital film' camera. Which mode is right for you is up to you. I shoot 99% Cine EI, but that's me:-)

I agree with Olof's point above. Go watch Doug's tutorial. It's a good idea to get one coherent voice to guide you through all the issues.

With that said, I also agree with Morgan's points above and will ask, what do you shoot and what NLE do your guys use?
 
Till the moment you will truly understand CineEI workflow and be confident that your editor understands it as well I wouldn't go out of custom mode - you can do more harm then good. Read about, do some testing and only then use it on a paid gig. Also have a look at cameramanben's LutCALC, it's a invaluable tool to work with CineEI footage.
 
Liam Hall said:
Properly shot Slog3 doesn't have WB issues.
Click to expand...

Of course it does.. (and doesnt)

So if you are in a green flouro kitchen (for example) you cant click WB in camera to get rid of that.

Of course as long as the post team can "swing a shot that is a little green or cool/warm" the actual file has enough depth to take the swing.


 
While Doug Jensen tutorial is good for telling one where the buttons are and super helpful for navigating the horrid menu it does not really, IMO, consider the complex question posed by the OP which is really a production question.
 
morgan_moore said:
Of course as long as the post team can "swing a shot that is a little green or cool/warm" the actual file has enough depth to take the swing.
Click to expand...

That's my point. Indeed, if your post team can't make a simple colour correction, you shouldn't be shooting in CineEI mode.

morgan_moore said:
While Doug Jensen tutorial is good for telling one where the buttons are and super helpful for navigating the horrid menu it does not really, IMO, consider the complex question posed by the OP which is really a production question.
Click to expand...

I agree. The OP can only decide that himself, but learning how to work the camera is a good place to start.
 
alohype said:
Till the moment you will truly understand CineEI workflow and be confident that your editor understands it as well I wouldn't go out of custom mode - you can do more harm then good. Read about, do some testing and only then use it on a paid gig. Also have a look at cameramanben's LutCALC, it's a invaluable tool to work with CineEI footage.
Click to expand...

I am going to be taking a look at it today, is there any specific setup for a standard out to generate you would recommend? I was thinking giving a try taking the fs7 slog to output the gamma to Rec709 (800%) and try LC709A as well.

As for editing are computers can handle it and we will be doing all are work in premiere due to the speed of turn around on these projects, though with Lumetri I think handling the slog footage is fine for those minor adjustments from what I have experienced in the past with slog from the F3. However I am not the editor for a majority of the FS7 shoots.

Also I see the FS7 has LUT built into the camera for the monitor (or to even be applied directly to the footage). Where can I find the post production version of these LUTS that are in the camera?
 
ReelFilmGeek said:
Also I see the FS7 has LUT built into the camera for the monitor (or to even be applied directly to the footage). Where can I find the post production version of these LUTS that are in the camera?
Click to expand...

I'm on an iPad right now so can't check the zip file, but try...

http://community.sony.com/sony/atta...2707/1/SonyLookProfiles_SLog3_SGamut3Cine.zip

Also note some users have reported issues applying LUTs within Premiere Pro CC, so you might want to test it against other software.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...slog-3&p=1986608229&viewfull=1#post1986608229
 
Excellent question! I've been shooting with the FS7 for almost a year and here is my two cents:

I used to shoot Custom with SLOG3 and Color Matrix off for the last half year. The results looked pretty good but this method had one big downside:
Not being able to have a LUT displayed made exposure really hard. I have my Zebras set to 92, waveform on and always expose to the right to keep my shadows relatively noise free. Sometimes I forget though. The tricky thing is when you watch something in SLOG3 and it's underexposed it might still look right to you when you only have a minute to assess lighting of your scene. Now, I shoot a lot of run and gun type projects in industrial type settings so, as others pointed out, it really depends on what you shoot.
I switched back to CineEI recently because I think the results look better, mostly because I can expose better. I originally switched to Custom mode because of having the benefit of Noise reduction. Now with the upcoming firmware I will have NR in CineEI.
 
Thank you for those Luts they should make the editors happy. And yes I am looking forward to NR in cine EI as the editors have mentioned they don't like us shooting in slog because of the noise the are experiencing. Going to do some more tests as I am just getting my hands on the FS7 now.
 
You won't have noise in Slog if you expose properly - meaning 800 or 100 ISO. You will at 2000 ISO though.
The problem with not having a green correction in our white balance under fluorescent, isn't that its hard to correct in post . It isn't. The problem is its hard to light when you need to correct your lighting to match existing sources and everything looks green. However you can make corrected LUTs with LUTCalc. pretty tricky but it can be done.
 
ReelFilmGeek said:
Thank you for those Luts they should make the editors happy. And yes I am looking forward to NR in cine EI as the editors have mentioned they don't like us shooting in slog because of the noise the(y) are experiencing. Going to do some more tests as I am just getting my hands on the FS7 now.
Click to expand...

Slog is only noisy if the operator under exposes.

Of course there are occasions where the operator runs out of light/tstop and is forced to under expose.. or move to another setting (Id suggest SlogCustom 8000ISO)

Id do this..
Forget LUT in camera (or buy a monitor that supports LUTs)
Choose EI
Expose so you get a good chunk of info in the middle of the WFM
Throw into Prem, Add the regular Slog3 to 709 Lut
Edit.

If you are on location and cant 'fill' the WFM in EI mode then you have to move to custom Slog (NR mid, Matrix OFF) and set the gain to 4000 or 8000, FILL the WFM

Throw into Prem, Add the regular Slog3 to 709 Lut
Edit.
 
I shoot for several different companies and we used CineEI, usually paired with LC709a either as a monitor LUT or baked in, 100% of the time. Why? Because it's very easy to get a nice filmic looking without any real effort in post. Just shoot and hand over nice looking footage.

The ability to use monitor LUTs is a huge advantage in getting proper exposure as it's very WSYWIG.

The three WB presets are not really that much of an issue, at least for us.

The color science is quite different between CineEI and Custom. Sony pushes CineEI as their latest filmic settings and with good reason, it just looks nice. I came from using the FS700 for two years, and that color science is similar to Custom in the FS7 and I greatly prefer the new look.

It takes a little bit wrap your head around working with Exposure Index instead of traditional ISO, but it's easy once you figure it out.
 
I find the best result is in Cine EI and pushing exposure so that you hardly ever underexposed. A few times I've dealt with low light events and these rare occasions I've baked in a LUT and shot at ISO4000. It has also looked nice with some noise where as I usually have absolutly zero noise in my footage unless doing HFR.

The nice thing about Cine EI is how easy it is to shoot with when using LUTs.
 
Osslund said:
I find the best result is in Cine EI and pushing exposure so that you hardly ever underexposed. A few times I've dealt with low light events and these rare occasions I've baked in a LUT and shot at ISO4000. It has also looked nice with some noise where as I usually have absolutly zero noise in my footage unless doing HFR.

The nice thing about Cine EI is how easy it is to shoot with when using LUTs.
Click to expand...

I think I understand this right, but when baking in a LUT with Cine EI mode, does the ISO work the same way it would in Custom or a traditional video camera? So upping the ISO will increase the apparent exposure in the underlying file (not simply change what I'm seeing on the monitor while the camera stays at 2000)?
 
EidolonFilms said:
I think I understand this right, but when baking in a LUT with Cine EI mode, does the ISO work the same way it would in Custom or a traditional video camera? So upping the ISO will increase the apparent exposure in the underlying file (not simply change what I'm seeing on the monitor while the camera stays at 2000)?
Click to expand...

Yes it does. If you set all LUTs on you'll get the waveform up on screen and when you increase the ISO the Waveform will show the corresponding exposure change. It works exactly how you'd expect it to.
 
EidolonFilms said:
I think I understand this right, but when baking in a LUT with Cine EI mode, does the ISO work the same way it would in Custom or a traditional video camera? So upping the ISO will increase the apparent exposure in the underlying file (not simply change what I'm seeing on the monitor while the camera stays at 2000)?
Click to expand...

Yes, as Nirv says above, when burning-in a LUT ISO will behave exactly like it will on a normal video camera, but it won't have noise reduction, custom WB and other processing features a normal video camera will have. Always remember, Cine EI is designed to be graded, learn how to expose it correctly and it's a breeze.

Indeed, something lost on many users; if you are burning in a LUT you are not shooting Slog and will not be able to take advantage of all the benefits of shooting log.

There are several situations where burning in a LUT may be useful, quick turnaround being the obvious one, but users need to be aware that unless you have a controlled lighting environment and are using the correct LUT for your given set-up then you may well be introducing noise and other issues that ordinarily you should avoid.
 
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