F55: Sony F55 vs Canon C700 impressions

deltoidjohn said:
These days I think the biggest problem with Red is the users!

I'm half joking, but there is definitely a fanboy culture that surrounds Red and is counter-productive to many types of work.
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It's absolutely nothing compared to the rabid and myopic Blackmagic worship that goes on.

Out of interest though, how is people on a dedicated Red internet forum (where it mostly takes place) waxing about how much they love the company or cameras making work with those tools counter-intuitive?


Even this thread is a great example of how much misinformation there is floating around about the system and the workflow so it does require a bit of evangelism in my opinion. Same as persuading people to work with Sony log footage instead of hypergammas. Same as persuading producers that 5Ds aren't as good quality as proper professional cameras for a lot of applications.
 
deltoidjohn said:
In Australia, most of the freelance gigs I see advertised are looking for F55's. They are very popular with the studios and most producers.
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Interesting. Is that because they are looking for that F55 'look' or because they are good value and tick the boxes?
 
From a production still.. it looks like the Crown netflix show is shot with at least one F55.. could be the netflix produced 4K "rule" coming into play.. Ive used my F5 on alot of Australian shows,and Netflix corp shoots..(with the 4K up grade of course).. Im not sure any camera is chosen for its "look" only,.. on any production.. it has to be a mixture of budget/workflow/availability/perceived robustness in certain locations/backup servicing ....and also what the DP actually owns themselves.. I get requests for F5 from people who dont know i have one.. still many for the C300.. but unlike 3 years ago.. now they are totally fine with the F5.. as for them C300 just means s35mm sensor..
 
Yup The Crown is an F55 production.

I guess after Marco Polo they feel very confident with it.

I thought Marco Polo looked really crappy to be honest, even if the art direction and production design were great. Heard The Crown looks great. Will have to have a look.
 
I would guess both Polo and Crown were /are shot RAW.. 16 bit.. thats a massive amount of color. combinations. and at least 13 stops attitude .. and even Slog3.cine is a pretty big gamut.. wider that P3 anyway.. even mediocre sets and art direction I think the only way anything shot with this combination is just plain bad grading.. though unlikely .. or the way your watching it.. even XAVC 10 bit you have a billion shades.. its hard to know how anything now can look bad with any amount of even modest post grading.. I think sometimes the problem on smaller shoots.. is editors not used to Log footage.. who have only tweaked REC 709 ish footage or Canon Log.. in editing software .. then been expected to deal with Slog without really knowing how to deal with it..
 
As much as I find the subject matter risible, The Crown looks stunning. I had no idea this was shot on the F55, I assumed it was RED.

Compare and contrast The Crown with the new Poliakoff garbage, Close To The Enemy, on BBC shot on Arri Alexa Plus, night and day difference. Close To The Enemy looks appalling, the camera work and editing are absolutely the worst I've seen in many years. The Crown had a budget of $156,000,000 which is probably 600x that of Close to the Enemy.

I'm over the 'Sony Look' myth which holds as much water as the Canon colour science myth.

Donny, you're right. It's almost impossible to deliver something that looks horrible even shot in XAVC Slog3 if you know how to work with it. I was at an industry get together a while ago and I was talking to a broadcast editor and I was surprised when his eyes glazed over when I was talking about SLog3, it was like I was speaking a different language. There are pockets of the industry that still have no idea how to work with it, a big chunk of broadcast never sees Log footage yet your average Vimeo filmmaker with an A7S would be all over it like a rash.
 
Grug said:
You thought Marco Polo looked crappy? How so?
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It has great costumes and art direction and sets and the actual cinematography is grand, but it always felt way too saturated and punchy like a reality show which meant it lacked depth. Often as though it was shot with a much faster shutter than 180 degrees - but this might be because slomo was sped up to realtime later. Season 2 improved this somewhat.


My fave F55 shot Netflix show is definitely Sense8 which I thought looked ace.
 
Nirv said:
As much as I find the subject matter risible, The Crown looks stunning. I had no idea this was shot on the F55, I assumed it was RED.

Compare and contrast The Crown with the new Poliakoff garbage, Close To The Enemy, on BBC shot on Arri Alexa Plus, night and day difference. Close To The Enemy looks appalling, the camera work and editing are absolutely the worst I've seen in many years. The Crown had a budget of $156,000,000 which is probably 600x that of Close to the Enemy.

I'm over the 'Sony Look' myth which holds as much water as the Canon colour science myth.

Donny, you're right. It's almost impossible to deliver something that looks horrible even shot in XAVC Slog3 if you know how to work with it. I was at an industry get together a while ago and I was talking to a broadcast editor and I was surprised when his eyes glazed over when I was talking about SLog3, it was like I was speaking a different language. There are pockets of the industry that still have no idea how to work with it, a big chunk of broadcast never sees Log footage yet your average Vimeo filmmaker with an A7S would be all over it like a rash.
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Can't bring myself to watch The Crown for the same reasons you mentioned, but I hear it looks incredible.

In fairness to your broadcast editor, he should we worrying about narrative and content, probably cutting from transcodes with rec709 lut applied and leaving log talks to EPs and online editors/colourists.
 
Donny 123 said:
I would guess both Polo and Crown were /are shot RAW.. 16 bit.. thats a massive amount of color. combinations. and at least 13 stops attitude .. and even Slog3.cine is a pretty big gamut.. wider that P3 anyway.. even mediocre sets and art direction I think the only way anything shot with this combination is just plain bad grading.. though unlikely .. or the way your watching it.. even XAVC 10 bit you have a billion shades.. its hard to know how anything now can look bad with any amount of even modest post grading.. I think sometimes the problem on smaller shoots.. is editors not used to Log footage.. who have only tweaked REC 709 ish footage or Canon Log.. in editing software .. then been expected to deal with Slog without really knowing how to deal with it..
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It's clearly an aesthetic choice and not some limitation of the codec or cameras. I just didn't care for it.
 
Ben Scott said:
Out of interest though, how is people on a dedicated Red internet forum (where it mostly takes place) waxing about how much they love the company or cameras making work with those tools counter-intuitive?
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Internet forum? I'm talking about real life! Best example I've had is a Red fanboy DOP who ranted to me that he was forced to use a hired F55 on a shoot and it was the worst piece of junk ever and that Sony is the devil. I asked him why he couldn't just use his own camera (Red Epic), and his response was: "It broke down."

Ben Scott said:
Interesting. Is that because they are looking for that F55 'look' or because they are good value and tick the boxes?
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It's nothing to do with value (like I said, it's the well-budgeted gigs that ask for F55, and the lower end asking for Red), but it is to do with ticking the boxes - in a technical sense, rather than a bottom-line/justification sense - and working seamlessly on set and in post.

It also probably has a lot to do with the fact that a Red needs to be sent to the USA for servicing or repairs, and the possibility of that down-time is unacceptable.
 
If that's the best example it doesn't sound so bad. We've all got preferred tools and we have all been thrown in the deep end with gear we are not au fait with at times. Some peeps deal with that scenario worse than others.

No idea what the Oz setup is but here Red will always sort you out with a loaner if a cam goes down. Interesting that F55s get that treatment over there but absolutely it is a workflow that holds little in the way of surprise so understandable it has fans right across a large production.
 
The crown is a stunning piece of work. I'd considered an F55, shooting RAW i know how capable it is, it's been shown time and time again to be a totally top tier solid performer. However it was cheaper for me to get an Epic, simple as that. And i'm more than happy with that. F55 shooting RAW or Epic, doesn't matter, both produce images that represent what you're pointing it at. Spend the rest of the time working on what you're pointing at.

IMHO a lot of the Sony look is the non RAW side, the colour science decisions Sony engineers made when it comes to any form of baked image out of it, be it Slog or otherwise. It's an aesthetic choice.

I personally really like the RAW out of the FS700. It suffers tonality issues on shadows and overall dynamic range - but when it's in it's element it produces fantastic images.

Yes there is some pretty amazing loyalty on the Red brand, it's usually positive loyalty too.

cheers
Paul
 
deltoidjohn said:
Internet forum? I'm talking about real life! Best example I've had is a Red fanboy DOP who ranted to me that he was forced to use a hired F55 on a shoot and it was the worst piece of junk ever and that Sony is the devil. I asked him why he couldn't just use his own camera (Red Epic), and his response was: "It broke down."
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I still hear that some producers that won't entertain RED unless they can rent two heads and I've got a Director chum who doesn't have anything to do with REDs because, in his words, he doesn't want a hairdryer on set...

I don't know how much of these things are still true but the perception is still out there.

Edit: The down voter is showing the 'positive loyalty' to the RED brand, right Paul?
 
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Nirv said:
I still hear that some producers that won't entertain RED unless they can rent two heads and I've got a Director chum who doesn't have anything to do with REDs because, in his words, he doesn't want a hairdryer on set...

I don't know how much of these things are still true but the perception is still out there.
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Perceptions are hard to change. Specially with folks who aren't out in the field everyday, using the equipment day in and day out. Red and Sony may never escape their reputations.

I went out on a weapon shoot last month and have to say the fans are much quieter than the old MX and Dragon versions. I did not hear the sound department complaining, and it was in relatively tight quarters. But I also know that depending on the situation, even if it is slightly audible on the sound, RX 4 and spectograph editors it is pretty easy to clean up sound. I think the noise on my F65 mechanical shutter is louder than the new Weapon fans. And I'm not a Red fanboy, either. Just call it as I see it...in this case, hear it ;)

But still, reliability issues, even if few and far between, feel much more drastic when it happens to you. And if you read Red User, you'll find that reliability is a topic of discussion there too.
 
There's a huge chunk of C300 owner-ops on reality and nonfiction cable shows. Producers of those shows love the wysiwyg/neutral look of the Canons right out of the box. These ops are heavily invested in the Canon ecosystem and have been putting up with frankenrigs forever with their C300s. They will look at the C700 as something from heaven. Canon will likely drop the C700 price pretty soon after NAB (as they have before) and these folks will line up en masse to replace those high-mileage C300s.
 
JCummings said:
There's a huge chunk of C300 owner-ops on reality and nonfiction cable shows. Producers of those shows love the wysiwyg/neutral look of the Canons right out of the box. These ops are heavily invested in the Canon ecosystem and have been putting up with frankenrigs forever with their C300s. They will look at the C700 as something from heaven. Canon will likely drop the C700 price pretty soon after NAB (as they have before) and these folks will line up en masse to replace those high-mileage C300s.
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Do you think the producers of these Reality and non fiction cable shows would pay a dollar more for the C700 over the C300II?
 
JCummings said:
Nah. But if you want to be on the show next season...
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But are we talking about production companies buying their own camera,s.. which seems to be happening more and more.. or the freelancer themselves .. for the freelancer, what you say makes alot of sense for sure.. the prod co,s of course will go for the cheapest option to get the job done..
 
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