F55: Sony F55 vs Canon C700 impressions

Ben Scott said:
I know it's all funny and I know the specs don't match an Epic-w and I know it's pricey, but meanwhile this camera is going to be used on a whole bunch of high level projects and is going to gain a fair bit of traction as a rental.

Pretty certain there will be a big price drop soon anyway.
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I just wonder why you are so sure.. unless you have shares in canon and its wishful thinking ..:)... top end is already 100% saturated Arri/RED/F55.. rentals wont go for this if it cost too much in the first place.. then the rental will have to be high too.. I dont think the high end users are coming from a Canon C300/5D background.. well not many anyway.. and if they did, they are probably keeping quite about it. I dont see any logical reason for that market to love this camera... really I just dont see what it has to make anyone use it over the cameras all proved and trusted.. it falls between two stools...I think they would have been better going after Fs7 sales.. just my opinion of course.. I just wonder what specifically makes you think this camera will be used on alot of high end products and be a hit with the rentals.. The high end is not interested with out of the box color science.. they shoot RAW.. or LOG and can grade till the cows come home.. Arri have this market sown up.. no one wants to change eve less so as the budget goes up ..
 
Because the feedback so far is that people like it and like using it and it does its job with the minimum of fuss and quirks and everything you need to do people who aren't even used to the camera can do pretty much instantly. All that stuff saves time and money. Plus it makes nice enough pictures that it holds its own in that department.

I don't think you have to knock Arri off its perch in order to be successful, and I think it will open up the Canon Cine range v3.0 and its 2017 mid-range offerings to a lot of people.

I'm much more interested in trying this out than shooting on F55. Red Weapon/Epic-W is the perfect owner-operator camera but I have been on too many productions where that owner-operator doesn't have enough say and not everyone in the pipeline from acquisition to delivery understands the red workflow properly and so end results can be underwhelming.

This slots into an existing simple workflow and then with Codex can do the higher end thing.

We want bells and whistles and cool and horsepower. Producers want easy and no hiccups or quirks or hidden cost implications down the line.
 
Yes I agree .. the RED workflow is odd.. one guy I know records to a Pro res ext recorder always,when using his red.. thats just seems a total pain to me.. the cards are large in size and files too big.. in that sense I would say the exact opposite .. that the RED is not a good owner/op camera.. were as a F55 is alot easier to deal with for post and operation.. like having XLR,s and a VF.. :)..

But what is the minimum fuss and quirks you mention particular to this pretty much totally un tested in the field camera... what are fuss and quirks shooting with Alex/Arima/Sony F55.. Ive never had any.. I guess RED owners just love their camera and put up with all the other stuff.. but for a jobbing freelancer I would say its the least best choice ..
 
To be honest it's not even an opinion but a fact - Red weapon/epic is THE owner/operator camera in the medium end for promos/commercials/narrative. It just is. I used to get a ton more work of that type owning a Red than I do now with an FS7, despite being better at my job and better connected now. As for XLRs on board you can have studio grade preamps and on board XLRs if you want. Or you can very quickly reconfigure stripped down for gimbal or arial use. You can be run n gun with stills glass and you can be shooting panavision anamorphics in a full heavy duty cinema rig. You can record pro res internally at the same time as recording raw r3d files. No external recorder needed. On the tier of production below that I don't know what the market is like for Scarlet-Ws but my guess is that it's at a price point where people would rather either go all-in or choose a cheaper solution.

Again, nothing is going to knock Arri's crown off. That's not the goal. The goal is to be a viable higher-end production camera. Everyone that's gone near it so far says they have done that. F55s and Sony in general don't have the best reputation outside news and docs.
 
Fair points re the RED.. I was referring to Doc,s .. small budget corps.. personally I have never once been asked for a RED ....but still I wonder what is easier,less fuss and less quirky with the C700.. as apposed to any other camera its in competition with.. I dont know I haven't used one.only seen pics. but neither have I read anywhere of anything that makes its an easier,or more straight forward system than anything else.. I have missed something..
 
Docs and small corporates I'd put in that tier below where the FS7 and C300mk2 shine at one end, and Amira and to a degree F55 do at the other end. Not to say you can't make another camera work in that environment but in terms of the tiers of production budget...

Re the C700 - It's a bit early so far as there's not so many out there in the wild but it's been something everyone that has used it has brought up so far. It seems to make ACs and DIT very happy. If you don't use an AC then maybe you don't gain as much from it....
 
Donny 123 said:
Yes I agree .. the RED workflow is odd.. one guy I know records to a Pro res ext recorder always,when using his red.. thats just seems a total pain to me.. the cards are large in size and files too big.. in that sense I would say the exact opposite .. that the RED is not a good owner/op camera.. were as a F55 is alot easier to deal with for post and operation.. like having XLR,s and a VF.. :)..

But what is the minimum fuss and quirks you mention particular to this pretty much totally un tested in the field camera... what are fuss and quirks shooting with Alex/Arima/Sony F55.. Ive never had any.. I guess RED owners just love their camera and put up with all the other stuff.. but for a jobbing freelancer I would say its the least best choice ..
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Just for the sake of clarity the red workflow may have been odd at one point but it's so utterly simple now.

Most NLEs just import R3D files. The look of the file is in a separate piece of data next to the file. You can alter the via most NLEs or alter it outside of the NLE via RedCine. Like a basic grade. Most NLEs will automatically create proxies if you want to take it away from the full footage.

So literally import it all, create proxies (if you have to) take away on a small laptop, edit and come back and connect back to the full files for grading and looks.

And of course all the modern Reds can record ProRes at the same time as RAW. Up to 4K ProRes in fact which in a lot of cases could be used as a master. You can record a proxy with RedWideGamut and Log to record the whole range of the camera in ProRes.

The argument for a odd workflow just isn't the case any more.

On datarates, i was running these rates off FS700+RAW via the O7Q so actually a lot of the red stuff is lower rates than that.

cheers
Paul
 
yep r3ds tends to be smaller than pro res for the same quality. But there is so much misinformation about Red and its workflow that unless you make sure everyone in the pipeline is on the same page it can cause problems.

Paul I must hassle you about you are getting on with your Epic at some point. :)
 
paulcurtis said:
Just for the sake of clarity the red workflow may have been odd at one point but it's so utterly simple now.

Most NLEs just import R3D files. The look of the file is in a separate piece of data next to the file. You can alter the via most NLEs or alter it outside of the NLE via RedCine. Like a basic grade. Most NLEs will automatically create proxies if you want to take it away from the full footage.

So literally import it all, create proxies (if you have to) take away on a small laptop, edit and come back and connect back to the full files for grading and looks.

And of course all the modern Reds can record ProRes at the same time as RAW. Up to 4K ProRes in fact which in a lot of cases could be used as a master. You can record a proxy with RedWideGamut and Log to record the whole range of the camera in ProRes.

The argument for a odd workflow just isn't the case any more.

On datarates, i was running these rates off FS700+RAW via the O7Q so actually a lot of the red stuff is lower rates than that.

cheers
Paul
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Point taken.. yes it seems that REDs do have this sort of bad rep that is now un justified ..the noisy fan is another one..
 
All cameras and camera manufacturers have their good points and bad points. Red is always pushing the envelope...which is a good thing. That sometimes comes at the risk of lack of stability. Not always, but many red owners have had media reliability issues with weapons, amongst other quirks. But the FS7 also ad some quirks in the beginning as well. But in LA there is this thing that people like to hate on red. Everyone just wants Alexa and if they show up on a set and it's a red, ACs start to complain. However, this is usually a thing that inexperienced people do to sound more experienced. Often times they may never even used a red camera before.
 
Tom Roper said:
Now this is funny...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztpX3AO1UtU#t=184.162796
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Why is this funny?

He makes an incredibly valid point regarding the mode of reception of video being from highly compressed sources on small phone screens.

If someone had told me when I was shooting with PD150s and DSR570s that in less than a decade and a half I could shoot 4k on a mobile phone I would've said take me immediately to the future and do not pass go!
 
Nirv said:
Why is this funny?
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Funny in sarcasm. There are people trying to say the F55 is too complicated for DPs to use or not good enough, therefore DPs are shunning it en mass, despite its usage in top rated network shows like Big Bang Theory and The Blacklist, The Masters, The NFL, the camera must be holding them back! Then along comes a guy who proves he can shoot with an iPhone with enough skill you may not be able to tell it apart from a $50,000 Epic-W, and makes his point! It's not the camera, it's the skill of the operator. What we have with all cameras today including the iPhone to use a metaphor, is a wealth of riches.
 
Thing about an F55 is I have never ever heard of a Producer or Director wanting something shot on it. Tends to be the camera the DP owns or that the production can get a great deal on that then 'proves' it can do just as good a job. I had excactly the same thing when trying to push using a Red Scarlet for jobs they'd normally have used a C300 for.

Despite Marco Polo and Vinyl being shot on F55, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone doing dramas crying out for its use. Whereas for docs and OB stuff the more legendary Sony robustness/field-worthyness is a factor. To date my fave thing shot on F55 is a BBC Sue Perkins 'Mekong' documentary, which looked to have very difficult conditions the whole way through.

I get the impression that the C700 will equally find a niche corner where it is very popular.
 
The F55 is going out on plenty of narrative drama shows (in the US and Australia at least). The panavised ones seem pretty popular by all accounts.

The C700 looks like it'll cater well to that same crowd, so I think it might do well as a 4k rental system.
 
That's not what I said though. I didn't say it isn't getting used for drama. I said it's not a camera that Directors and producers are crying out for or demanding for their drama. Whatever they end up using tends to be a decision based on far more than image quality.
 
Ben Scott said:
Thing about an F55 is I have never ever heard of a Producer or Director wanting something shot on it. Tends to be the camera the DP owns or that the production can get a great deal on that then 'proves' it can do just as good a job.
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I'd say that has as much or more to do with your market and where you're located. I live in the US on the east coast and serve mostly the network/broadcast market. The 55 is very popular. I've been called and brought in on shoots just because I owned the camera, not because I was pushing it. In fact, I had two feature shoots last week and I opted for my C300 for both of them, because I prefer the straight out of camera image that I can get with my 300(I don't shoot log or other "flat" looks. I'm old school and do it "in-camera"). It makes my job easier.

I have an ambivalent relationship with the 55. Image wise it doesn't blow me away, it takes some level of post to make it start to shine. But actually using the camera, it's head and shoulders above a 300.

As far as the 700 goes, I haven't seen one in-person nor laid my hands on one. The image is nice, from what I've seen. I watched the latest "demo piece" on YouTube in 4K on my 4K OLED set. But I doubt I will ever own one. Not because of price(a 55 is $30K, too), but I just don't think it will catch on or be requested or in-demand in the market I serve. No one is asking for the 300 II, either. It's still original 300 and 5/55, with some ops pushing the FS-7. Heck, I just saw my first VariCam LT in the wild yesterday. And it was erector-setted up just as bad as a C300.
 
Donny 123 said:
Point taken.. yes it seems that REDs do have this sort of bad rep that is now un justified
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These days I think the biggest problem with Red is the users!

I'm half joking, but there is definitely a fanboy culture that surrounds Red and is counter-productive to many types of work.

Ben Scott said:
Thing about an F55 is I have never ever heard of a Producer or Director wanting something shot on it. Tends to be the camera the DP owns or that the production can get a great deal on that then 'proves' it can do just as good a job.
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In Australia, most of the freelance gigs I see advertised are looking for F55's. They are very popular with the studios and most producers. The only time I see people asking for Red is for low/no budget narrative work. That's not to say that Reds are not used everyday on big professional jobs here, only that the F55 is the camera people ask for when they have large crews/workflows and corresponding budgets.

I can easily imagine the C700 usurping the F55 in that position (keeping in mind the F55 is 4 years old and almost overdue to be usurped by it's own successor anyway!)
 
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