Sony f35 with odyssey 7q - ongoing experiences and evolutions

Words from Mitch Goss (Convergent Design), regarding the progress on 12bit support for F35 on Odyssey 7Q

We've been so busy in other areas that we have not had a chance to direct attention to the F35.
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regarding timeframe for 12bit support

It's not clear at this time. It may be work that coincides with other projects and naturally falls into place.
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Ottowitz, see the thread by film scientist. If you get an Aja LUT box, it changes the PsF to true progressive and should output the proper 12 bit signal for your recorder. He has verified that the gemini can record 12 bit using the Aja LUT box.
 
yachacha said:
Ottowitz, see the thread by film scientist. If you get an Aja LUT box, it changes the PsF to true progressive and should output the proper 12 bit signal for your recorder. He has verified that the gemini can record 12 bit using the Aja LUT box.
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FYI for everyone - the AJA LUT Box works perfectly with the O7Q as well, but no different than plugging both SDI cables into the unit. Neither way allows the O7Q to recognize and record the 12bit yet... which sucks...

I sent back my LUT box even though it was a nice little thing.
 
You sunk my battleship. Thank you for testing Skatajkid, I was about to put a lot of money into this setup so it is great to know it's not the ultimate F35 recorder yet. So it seems the Gemini knows the special code of the F35 sf, while the 7Q does not. If it is worth anything to you, you have saved others $$ by being the first to test this combo and report back.

We need some sort of page listing what is known about the F35 and modern recorders.

From what I've read (I've only personally used Ki Pro, Hyperdeck, and Samurai) the only 12 bit options we have are Sound Devices (ProRes 444) or Gemini (Uncompressed) both of these options need a box to combine the 2 SDI into one 3G SDI. The Aja LUT box appears to be the winner of what box to use to combine the two signals as it is able to take the 12-bit PSF and make it into true Progressive 12 bit 3G.

Some where in the Gemini is the answer to the 7Q, I've honestly given up on the idea of an all in one recorder and moved onto thinking about 2 systems. Hyper deck is Prores, simple and proven on F35. Great for nearly everything I shoot and project where size is a consideration. Gemini captures the best possible information from the F35, along with the Codex and SR-R1. I will wait until this drop further in price and then invest in one for high end work. I'd love to see some more tests of F35 12bit against 4k modern cameras. Viddo has mentioned in other threads that the F35 could benefit from a special uprezzing code that would be able to fill the 4k frame with nearly as much information as a 4k native camera. It would be fun as the 5k iMacs and 4k TV's fill everyone's houses to have a 4k demo that showed just how well the F35 can hold up.
 
Pix 240i works great through a multiplexer (like the LUT box) - seems like Gemini does as well.

I have no doubt that one day the O7Q will support it too.... just sucks that it's a waiting game til then! When that does happen - it will be nice to flip between the 50p and 24/30p 12bit and not have to futz with anything to record (because they both are 3g sdi dual link)

I'd love to mess with a gemini one day... i kind of wish there were a 5" version of the O7Q somehow... the big screen is nice sometimes, but a pain others if you aren't using it to monitor.

I also wish you could loop through an SDI input on the F35 so I could see record confirmation on the EVF... but I digress! Lots of gives and takes with this beast of a camera.
 
I know CD is busy on newer cams, but if they were to look into the issue, it seems like an easy fix, the Gemini has the right code so at one point, CD knew how to make a recorder to work with the F35. Skatajkid, have you ever been able to test your 12 bit signal to a dual link monitor? I believe Mac had problems at one point with a IF box that would not output 12 bit. If possible verify your F35 setup is all working correctly before we go begging CD to look into this a little more.
 
yachacha said:
I know CD is busy on newer cams, but if they were to look into the issue, it seems like an easy fix, the Gemini has the right code so at one point, CD knew how to make a recorder to work with the F35. Skatajkid, have you ever been able to test your 12 bit signal to a dual link monitor? I believe Mac had problems at one point with a IF box that would not output 12 bit. If possible verify your F35 setup is all working correctly before we go begging CD to look into this a little more.
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We will get to it. We have many clients with many needs.
 

Hi Guys, the 12bit setting on the Gemini that worked for me was _24PsF 4:4:4.

23.98PsF 4:4:4 12 bit and S23.98PsF 12 bit did not work.

What software settings did you have on the LUT box?

Input Tab
Video Source: SDI 1, or SDI 1+2
Color Space: Auto, 422, 444 RGB, 444YCbCr
RGB Range: SMPTE or Full

SDI Tab
RGB Range: SMPTE or Full
PsF Mode: PsF or Pass Through
Pass Through: off or on
3G Level B: Level A, Level B or Auto

Thanks
 
Hmmm in that case you got me thinking. I believe I only tried 23.98PsF and not true 24. I only have 23.98 and then true 30p stored in my presets and didn't think go in and try true 24.

DANG! haha.... so maybe it still does work with O7Q... I don't have mine with me right now otherwise I'd test it... as soon as it comes back thats the first thing I'll test, though I don't have the LUT box - it will just be testing through the dual link.
 
Yeah unfortunately it probably won't work without the LUT box, since ultimately the Gemini and the Odyssey don't recognize Sony's earlier flavor of progressive segmented frames (PsF) with 12 bit.
You might get a signal, but it will probably give you an 'unsupported' onscreen message.
Both recorders really seem to require a true progressive signal for 12bit, which really only happens when you multiplex the dual link signal into single link 3G.
 
Thanks for looking into this guys, it is interesting the F35 does not have a true 24 Progressive mode, must be a way the tapes captured info back then. I was surprised to discover also that the 24 or 23.98 options are only sony PsF and this leads to some trouble with recorders and monitors it seems. I have a friend with a 7Q, still might be worthwhile to get a LUT box to test....
 
Yachacha,
the F35 comes from an era where progressive HD video was embedded into interlaced (PsF) video data streams. Sony's High def standard started as 1080i, Panasonic's system was based on 720p.

PsF became ultimately became the method for recording a progressive signal using existing interlaced tape recording systems (D5, DVProHD, HDCam, HDCam SR). When video recording transitioned from tape based recorders to digital solid state media, the PsF was no longer necessary other than to maintain interoperability with existing broadcast video equipment. Once monitors shifted from CRTs to LCDs, and tape recorders became solid state memory cards, standards like PsF and YUV became less common, leading the way for true progressive, and full RGB. The advancement of computing technology has made the post and delivery process much more data agnostic. Unfortunately (or fortunately for us) it's become more about 'clicking the right setting' that is programmed into the software. But if it's not programmed or set right in the software, then it just won't work, so it's typically 100% or 0%.

I will try to compile my exact 12bit settings in a next several days to help you guys out.

Cheers
 
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according to Mitch Gross - 12 bit dpx files are already possible with the c500 signal. and they are working on 12 bit 444 pro res. so it may be just a firmware update away. but yes they would need to read psf or do like i do using my multiplexer into the pix 240 to get rgb 12 bit 444 recording.
 
We are aware of exactly what we would need to do in order to work properly with the F35. As I have discussed with one or two forum members in the past, when we get to the right stage we may need to borrow someone's camera and IF box in order to test as we don't have an F35 in house.
 
Mitch Gross said:
We are aware of exactly what we would need to do in order to work properly with the F35. As I have discussed with one or two forum members in the past, when we get to the right stage we may need to borrow someone's camera and IF box in order to test as we don't have an F35 in house.
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I believe others have offered as well, but I do own 2 F35s and IF boxes and can definitely spare one if necessary to help bring this to life! Just saying! Feel free to PM me, or I can get in touch with you when the time is right. And I'm about to purchase my second O7Q(+!) as well - so I'm definitely a dedicated customer! :)
 
skatajkid said:
I believe others have offered as well, but I do own 2 F35s and IF boxes and can definitely spare one if necessary to help bring this to life! Just saying! Feel free to PM me, or I can get in touch with you when the time is right. And I'm about to purchase my second O7Q(+!) as well - so I'm definitely a dedicated customer! :)
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Much appreciated and I will definitely keep it in mind when we get to that stage.
 
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