Sony f35 with odyssey 7q - ongoing experiences and evolutions

[macgregor]

It's not a matter of "fix everything in post". The benefit of RAW is "would you rather spend time fiddling with settings on set, or in a nice quiet environment, with a calibrated monitor, that costs way less per hour than set." It's the same settings really, but you can delay fine-tuning them to a better environment, and that is very useful. That's not at all the same as not using lights, not knowing your craft, etc.

I still don't get why people think that RAW lets them redo things in post, when the reality is that, except for easier WB setting, there's nothing else you can do with a raw file than with a log file. Maybe this misconception comes from the way adobe camera raw and lightroom work, where people think they are recovering missing highlights and bringing back details in the shadows. The fact is that they were not seeing them on the first place (this does not happen in red raw or s-log for example), it's not like RAW has some hidden magic in it.

 

[LeavingTheCandy]

Red Raw doesn't bake-in the ISO, WB, etc. (it's all about lighting it properly…exposure reigns, just like out cameras). A lot of the other "RAW" formats bake-in some of the info. (Canon, Sony, etc. --not sure about Arri).
It seems to be a marketing gimmick so allow people to think that poor exposures can be fixed in post. I am with Mac: no deal.

I suppose it's a benefit if the director/DP would like to allow the colorist more flexibility/latitude to make larger changes.

 

[JMtheDP]

For what it's worth, ARRI RAW on the D-20/D-21 baked in the white balance. On the ALEXA, it does not.

Critically also ARRIRAW is only uncompressed. RED RAW is not.

 

[CaptainSKA]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I want to record 422 50/60p out of the F35 to DNxHD, I just need the Odyssey 7, not the 7Q, correct?

 

[Jusgorilla]

Does anybody know if it's ok to power the camera and then the 7q via dtap all from one battery?

 

[JMtheDP]

Justin

The F35 draws ~58W, the Odyssey apparently up to 15. That is around 75W (rounding up), without any other accessories (eg. viewfinder). It is doable if you have a good, strong battery that is rated for the current (eg. Hawkwoods V-Lok, IDX Endura Elite/HL) but I'd probably rather power them separately myself.

 

[Jusgorilla]

Thanks James.
i did power both and cw35 VF and it works fine, but battery runs out quick.
i use the Swit 190w/h vlocks, any good?
ill power separately as u suggested just to be safe.

 

[Jusgorilla]

Quite amazing to have such a powerful combination recording higher bitrate 50p with only 1 battery, compared to my cinedeck setup! James you'll love it, if u got the cash I suggest the 7q. The files are huge but hopefully the prores will come soon.

also, I can't remember who said the s60p although recognized by the 7q, will record 10 frames of junk (actually just repeated frames/held frames) I can confirm this, it does indeed add 10 frames of junk. So as you said, only for ramping on the Srw1 deck.

 

[Jusgorilla]

 

[JMtheDP]

I would get a 7Q but I'm kinda committed to the Cinedeck now I've trashed my interface box for it (although it wouldn't be a nightmare to reassemble)

Also, I have one 480gb SSD which was expensive enough and I can go through that at a fair rate with compressed footage, let alone uncompressed.

To me shooting uncompressed is almost a step back, because very few people need it or can use it, so I'm only going to wind up processing everything I shoot and if that is the case I might as well be shooting on tape still

 

[Jusgorilla]

True that, brother.
i like to jump in tho
also got expensive 512gb OCZ vector (like $700)
and also now have a cinedeck just chillin on the side.

 

[SJX]

I have got to say to YOCLAY though the intent of the F35 is that it is "4K" in-camera, it just down-resses to 1080p internally (for better or for worse)

I have heard this several times. That although the Genesis and F35 are technically 1080p they resolve more detail because they basically have a 4K sensor. Is there any footage or a frame grab where I could see this in action anywhere? Like a very wide shot or establishing shot filmed with the F35? Every film I have seen shot on the F35 or Genesis just looked like really great 1080p. Didn't see any extra woomph in the detail department.

I'm playing with my C500 to see how the image stacks-up. So far, I'm pretty impressed.

Any chances of comparison shots between the C500 in 1080p and the F35? Sharpness and dynamic range comparisons would be great.

 

[TheWakePlace.com]

C500 is a completely different chip to the F35, i mean in terms of technology foundation, i have shot with the new BMCC 4K and also seen C500 footage. They are just built different from a image acquisition point of view. The CCD and global shutter on the F35 beats out everything else i own for a film image..... better than my Epic, Scarlet, DSLR, and all the canon C range that i have shot with. Of course, if the image from the F35 is not what you're looking for, then awesome, the C500 wins for a more modern HD look.... as in a little less filmic and more clinical and clean.


Also, the F35 captures, in terms of its sensor, at closer to 5K rather than 4K....

Powering the 7Q off od a battery plate is exactly how i run my own 7Q set up... see here

 

[yachacha]

Holy cow I've been behind the times on this recorder. I recently did a low budget show live show that needed to backup 8 recorders just in case something went wrong with one of the 8 camera recorders. I rented 8 Ki Pro's and was able to get a reliable backup of the cams, however it was still pricey. If you're telling me these recorders can record 4 independent HD signals each, I would only need 2 to backup 8 cams! That by itself it worth buying one, but it's also becoming the F35 recorder or choice for price/file quality.

I feel like we need to compile an updated list of F35 recorders and which ones can do which files. I feel like all these questions have been answered, it would just take printing out the pages and getting together all the different experiences. Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is by no means complete, just the recorders I have been considering for the "Ultimate" F35 recorder and I wanted to know if I am mistaken. I feel like there are 3 contenders.

I am not considering the Sony recorders which easily record 12 bit simply because I do not think I am going to track one down for a price close to what you can get a SSD recorder today. If you've got one feel lucky, it is easier that dealing with the dozens of tiny pieces and custom cables needed to make these into a sleek F35 recorder.

Sound Devices Pix 240
This is still the only proven recorder that can create 12 bit 444 files from the F35, (is this true)? It also can see the 109% white levels if you wanted to get the absolute best DR from the F35. Legendary Sound recording, Timecode, LANC, all great things. Cons: Needs a dual SDI to 3g multiplexer.

Ki Pro Quad
Expensive but could be useful with other 4k cameras. It has dual SDI inputs. Reads 12 bit 444, Files created are 10 bit 444, something in the hardware of the KiPro prevents 12-bit from being recorded. It can also record the 109% 444 properly? Has a little screen but it has a screen, will fit nicely on the back of the F35.

Odyssey 7Q - Currently records 444 10-bit, records the 109% white 444 properly? Has the dual inputs and is an awesome screen to look at. It is still unknown if the F35 and Odyssey 7Q will record 444 12 bit. The pro res is coming, this will happen.

I'm still leaning towards the sound devices even though a multiplexer is another piece to worry about. If I'm going through the headache of adding an interface box to get the highest quality possible from the F35, the SD will give those 2 extra bits the 7Q doesn't. I am not trying to dis on the 7Q, like I said I want one as soon as prores is a reality, but I would like someone to clarify my facts and tell me if I'm wrong about something.

 

[SJX]

C500 is a completely different chip to the F35, i mean in terms of technology foundation, i have shot with the new BMCC 4K and also seen C500 footage. They are just built different from a image acquisition point of view.

I know the F35 is not very good for night shots unless you can light, which means mucho $$$$.

But I was wondering if the sharpness, detail and higher dynamic range of the C500 was really obvious when compared to the F35. I know that in low light nothing really compares to the C500, let alone the F35 which is quite old now.

Also, the F35 captures, in terms of its sensor, at closer to 5K rather than 4K....

Do you have any clips showing this?

Interesting video by the way. But the F35 record button doesn't trigger the 7Q? This is very annoying and unpractical specially when doing hand held. I have a Hyperdeck and if my camera couldn't control it I wouldn't want to use it. I have had to use it that way once and it was a nightmare. Are there any recorders that work properly? Does the Hyperdeck?

 

[SJX]

I am not considering the Sony recorders which easily record 12 bit simply because I do not think I am going to track one down for a price close to what you can get a SSD recorder today. If you've got one feel lucky, it is easier that dealing with the dozens of tiny pieces and custom cables needed to make these into a sleek F35 recorder.

Which Sony recorder, the big tape one? If so does it have a SDI out that you can use to capture the tape to the computer? Or how you capture? If you need a HDCAM deck too it will be very expensive.

Sound Devices Pix 240
This is still the only proven recorder that can create 12 bit 444 files from the F35, (is this true)? It also can see the 109% white levels if you wanted to get the absolute best DR from the F35. Legendary Sound recording, Timecode, LANC, all great things. Cons: Needs a dual SDI to 3g multiplexer.

Interesting. Is the multiplexer expesive or hard to work with? Because if not, why even go with a 7Q?

Ki Pro Quad
Expensive but could be useful with other 4k cameras. It has dual SDI inputs. Reads 12 bit 444, Files created are 10 bit 444, something in the hardware of the KiPro prevents 12-bit from being recorded. It can also record the 109% 444 properly? Has a little screen but it has a screen, will fit nicely on the back of the F35.

So this records 4K too?

I'm still leaning towards the sound devices even though a multiplexer is another piece to worry about. If I'm going through the headache of adding an interface box to get the highest quality possible from the F35, the SD will give those 2 extra bits the 7Q doesn't. I am not trying to dis on the 7Q, like I said I want one as soon as prores is a reality, but I would like someone to clarify my facts and tell me if I'm wrong about something.

by the way, is the difference between 444 12 bit and 10 bit really that obvious?

 

[JMtheDP]

@SJX You have to remember, the F35 was built as a FILM REPLACEMENT CAMERA. That means, if you could do it with film, you could do it with the F35. That works for both advantages and limitations.

I personally wouldn't really want to go into any situation where I *needed* ISO 2000+ just to get exposure. As my old teacher once said "You're called a lighting cameraman for a reason"

The F35 does deliver a stunning 1080P picture, which is the sort of point that a lot of people miss. The REDs also deliver a stunning 1080P picture, as I'm sure do the Canons etc... But the F35, by doing it in camera, saves a hell of a lot of hassle. Let's not forget this was one of the major draws of the ALEXA.

Regarding the F35 sensor, we don't need clips - just look up the spec sheet. The sensor is 5760 x 2160 pixels. 20% more resolution than the original RED could use of the M-X sensor. If you want to know more about the sensor, I made a whole thread dedicated to that.

That said, no-one here has really bought the camera on the basis of numbers, we buy it for the quality of image that it produces.

Sadly no recorders other than the SRW-1 deck or the codex/S.Two work by being triggered by the camera. I am not sure if Sony's SR-R1 even does, I don't think that it does.

 

[JMtheDP]

Which Sony recorder, the big tape one? If so does it have a SDI out that you can use to capture the tape to the computer? Or how you capture? If you need a HDCAM deck too it will be very expensive.

The Sony HDCAM deck, if you buy both parts, acts as an HDCAM deck too so to capture you only need a relatively cheap SDI capture card in your PC.

Interesting. Is the multiplexer expesive or hard to work with? Because if not, why even go with a 7Q?

It is not expensive, it is just more unnecessary cables and something else to go wrong.

So this records 4K too?

The KI Pro will record 4K from certain cameras, yes.

by the way, is the difference between 444 12 bit and 10 bit really that obvious?

It is a difference, but I would wager only under *extreme* grading - the difference between 8-bit and 10-bit, however, is massive. Important to note as I believe the HD-SDI output from the C300 (not 500) is only 8-bit, is that right?

 

[SJX]

@SJX You have to remember, the F35 was built as a FILM REPLACEMENT CAMERA. That means, if you could do it with film, you could do it with the F35. That works for both advantages and limitations.

Isn't that just Sony marketing? I'm pretty sure they would have made the camera as good as they could back then. If they could have done it better than film they would have. They wouldn't dumb it down just to match film's limitations. I mean, look at the F55.

I personally wouldn't really want to go into any situation where I *needed* ISO 2000+ just to get exposure. As my old teacher once said "You're called a lighting cameraman for a reason"

Sure. But if you need a night external and have no budget to light the whole street, having a camera that can do well in low light and not produce noisy footage is a life saver. Budgets are shrinking and now with the cameras that see in the dark clients expect that. I used a Nikon DSLR for a night shoot that could literally see in the dark. So I keyed the talent with a Z96 LED light. The rest was just ambient light and it looked great. It looked like we lit the shot, because we did. But I didn't need a powerful light for the key and I didn't need a generator etc. Dissing cameras that are good in low light is no sense. They are very useful.

The F35 does deliver a stunning 1080P picture, which is the sort of point that a lot of people miss. The REDs also deliver a stunning 1080P picture, as I'm sure do the Canons etc... But the F35, by doing it in camera, saves a hell of a lot of hassle. Let's not forget this was one of the major draws of the ALEXA.

Was? I think it still is, no?

Regarding the F35 sensor, we don't need clips - just look up the spec sheet. The sensor is 5760 x 2160 pixels. 20% more resolution than the original RED could use of the M-X sensor. If you want to know more about the sensor, I made a whole thread dedicated to that.

I'm not interested in data. I'm interested in real world examples. Data says nothing. Can you see this extra 20% you speak of in the footage when compared to a HD camera that doesn't have a 5k sensor? This is what I mean and what I want to see examples.

That said, no-one here has really bought the camera on the basis of numbers, we buy it for the quality of image that it produces.

Of course. But technical limitations are important to know. Specially with a camera like the F35 where when you buy it you stuck with it. Finding out some limitation you can't live with only after you already bought is no good.

Sadly no recorders other than the SRW-1 deck or the codex/S.Two work by being triggered by the camera. I am not sure if Sony's SR-R1 even does, I don't think that it does.

Well, this is strike one for me. It's very annoying to have to take the camera off the shoulder just to start the recorder. Specially a camera as fat and bulky as the F35. You can't always have an assistant.

 

[SJX]

The KI Pro will record 4K from certain cameras, yes.

Ok. Which ones? Just the FS700?
But I think the external recorder days are counted to be honest. More and more cameras will start having internal 4K recording. Look at the Blackmagic. Cheap and can do internal.

It is a difference, but I would wager only under *extreme* grading - the difference between 8-bit and 10-bit, however, is massive. Important to note as I believe the HD-SDI output from the C300 (not 500) is only 8-bit, is that right?

Yes C300 is 8-bit only in the SDI.