Sony F35 as a learning cinema camera?

S

Seraphimos

New member
Like all of you here on the Sony F35 “cult” (macgregor is our leader – all bows down in a solemn manner) there’s really something about this camera and Sony technology is capable of producing. I am just starting out on filmmaking (having a Sony a7s). Never went to film school nor had the chance to work with someone in the industry. Would anyone recommend the Sony F35 as a good “beginner tool” in a one-man band for learning on your own? There’s tons of information on the internet from what it was ten years ago. And I don’t know anybody who works with filmmaking.

I’ve found a kit with Interface box etc. that goes in the same price class as a used Canon C100 mkii. Sure, the build-up for this camera far exceeds an out of the box, run and gun, C100 mk2 or Sony FS7. But I’m talking about learning the aspects of setting up proper lightning, audio recording and also investing in some PL lenses further up on the road. Considering, I’d rather go for a Sony F35 over an FS700R what you get image-wise. The Sony a7s is a good tool for gimbal work, lightweight and produces a clean image. Having a Convergent Design Odyssey 7Q+ to go with the Sony F35 and Sony A7s would be great. And there seems to be setups to make the F35 very compact without the need to have a focus puller? Correct?

This is a huge investment folks and what I want to be working with in the future. All constructive feedback is highly appreciated. For those of you who work with the Sony F35, I would be very happy if you could give me a quick list of the pros and cons of this camera. I’m also wondering about the “lifespan” of working hours before it breaks apart and rendering it into paper weight.

Question: what are the things to look out for (and how to) when you buy a used one? Stuck pixels etc.

Please nock me in my head if I’m doing a stupid decision. Pardon my language. I’m not a native English speaker.
 
As a one man band camera, you may find rocking a simpler (or cheaper) rig may get you more bang for your buck. DSLRs are great for learning how to get use to 35mm depth of field, and a lot lighter/easier to transport. Lenses also get cheaper if you dont need a PL mount.

One annoying thing I learned the hard way, seems the XLR inputs on the IO box dont really like to actually send sdi audio out the SDI 1 or 2 ports... So if you are going to use it for single system jobs you'll need a recorder that can take in audio via some other method than embedded SDI.

That all being said, it makes very perty pictures. Be aware you'll either need a colorist or you'll need to learn basic color skills to get the most out of her image. It might be best to think of it as a 1080p alternative to a red scarlet camera vs a DSLR style rig.
 
If you want to learn whats the problem with the a7s?
Definitely the f35 is one of the simplest cameras to use. As simple as a film camera. The menus are complicated by you won't need to touch them at all. You only need to dial tungsten/daylight WB. Iso is set to 450. Shutter speed should remain 180deg. And that's pretty much it.
But if you want to learn stick with the a7s.
 
The thing about the F35 is that there's a lot of surrounding costs that are difficult to deal with if you're a beginner. Firstly the support, if you want a tripod that will work with the camera you'll have to spend quite a bit more than with an A7s. The batteries the camera requires are much larger and more expensive. PL lenses are almost universally going to be about 2-5x more expensive than sticking with EF. Rigging things, like baseplates and dovetails are more expensive than what you're used to. The lower base sensitivity of the sensor means you probably need to know more about lighting than you did before, and how to work with bigger lights, and access to bigger lights. It's a professional camera designed to work within the context of other professional camera gear. It's extremely cheap for what it is, but the surrounding gear hasn't gotten much cheaper at all.

It's a camera that's great if you know what you're doing already, but if you feel you're learning you might be overwhelmed and frustrated by the realities of working with this kind of gear. I'd definitely recommend working as a trainee/assistant on bigger productions, so you can get more familiar with the kind of environment and gear the F35 was designed around. In the mean time, the A7sis a great camera to learn and experiment on. By the time you feel ready to make the leap to a larger camera, and more expensive gear, the camera landscape might have changed a lot, and you'll be able to find a used professional camera that will fit more into what you're doing.
 
For a learning camera I'd run away fast from anything with the phrase "huge investment" (your words... but I'd say "huge expense", not investment).

As cameras depreciate and get obsolete, yes even an F35 :-P

Stick with your A7s for at least the next year! Or longer.

Or if somehow you feel like you must spend money.... buy a Sony F3 for $1.5K secondhand. Or a Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera.
 
The Basic costs of F35:

F35 body with IF box and top handle - $4500
Odyssey 7Q - $1200
2 x 512gb drives - $500
Gold Mount Plate - $199
Gold Mount Batteries and Charger - $1000

2nd, do you haves PL lenses?

Option #1 - first gen sony PL set - $2000
Option #2 Nikon conversion - $1500

Do you need shoulder setup? You will need rods.
Option #1 - use small 15mm shoulder mount like zacuto, shape or vocal - $600
Option #2 - Arri 19mm bridge plate - $1000

You will NEED a matte box with F35, this is necessary to hold filters. ND 6,9, grad, polarizer. We have been spoiled by new cameras with built in ND.
Matte box with filter tray - $350
4x5.65 filter set - $1000
or go with smaller 4x4 filters - $500

EVF
Will you shoot handheld or outdoor? 7Q is very nice screen but it fails in bright sunlight. Best bet if it is less than 1k to add to camera package, go for original. I just bought HD502 and I love it with sidefinder. It runs quite a while on 2 canon bricks so I power that with those and the 7Q off Dtap.

Sony EVF or Smallhd 502 package $1500

So please realize you have to buy most of these parts I've listed. The difference between this and many other cameras is the F35 was built to work with all pro parts, and for that you have to pay pro prices. Of course I feel I have gone the furthest making my F35 as small as possible to run like a DSLR and it is completely possible to make compact setup.
 
For a camera to learn on, I think you'd do better with something that offers more variable frame rates and more white balance options - those two things are kinda key to understanding how to balance colour within your frame and create different feelings through the cadence of the motion.
 
I think it comes down to budget and what you're trying to learn. In some ways, I think the best camera someone could buy to teach videography (and beginner cinematography) to a 10 year old would be an old Canon XL1S or XL2, with the kit lens. Physical controls, even if the lens was fly-by-wire, physical dials and toggles for the most important functions - For $300 or $400 a kid could learn the fundamentals of manually controlling a camera, and by the time they could make the image look good out of that, they'd have little trouble getting good images out of a modern camera.

But you're not that kid. And you specifically say cinema camera.

A DSLR and the F35 are entirely different beasts. The way you work will be different. The F35 is heavy and large compared to a DSLR. DSLR shooters frequently zip from one creative angle to another. They often ignore lighting concerns and bump up their gain. They have to go through deep complex menus to reach advanced functions. It's a different world.

The F35 isn't film, but it behaves like a studio film camera would. It's bulky, it's heavy. In it's cine mode you only use white balance the way you would choose a film stock. If you pick the F35, you camera angle choices will be different. Your shot list, your creativity in rigging to get unusual angles, etc. will all be a reflection of the size and shape of the tool. Your work will look and feel more like Hollywood studio stuff by nature of the tool being more like those cameras. You'll walk without the camera to the next shot, think that shot through before you ever move the camera or sticks. You'll move furniture, you'll lay dolly track, you'll rig. A DSLR shooter frequently just brings the camera and uses it's viewfinder to choose the next shot.

Everything depreciates, but F35 prices have held remarkably well over the last 2-3 years in the $6500+ range, with a few sweetheart deals being found for less every once and again. If you do opt in, the limited supply means they'll probably be resale value when you're done.

There's nothing wrong with choosing a DSLR over the F35, and some key advantages. But it comes down to what you want to learn, what you want your craft to be, and how you envision your art. If you want to focus on lighting, on long takes, on rigging and scheduling how you might for shooting actual film, the F35 is more likely to teach you that sort of style.
 
All grest advice from fellow DVX'ers here.

Here is maybe the difference from a more visual perspective.

images


images


Which do you want to learn? On sets cameras are large and quite rigged up for the most part. Usually you have a team (crew) of several just to work the camera. Yes of course you can operate F35 solo but how much can you do solo depending on the kind of shots or camera motion you want? Don't get me wrong I have dollied backwards while panning/tilting and pulling focus at f2.8 all by myself but it's a little bit crazy method.

Figure out what's important to you first and foremost and go from there.
 
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Viddovation said:
The F35 isn't film, but it behaves like a studio film camera would. It's bulky, it's heavy. In it's cine mode you only use white balance the way you would choose a film stock. If you pick the F35, you camera angle choices will be different. Your shot list, your creativity in rigging to get unusual angles, etc. will all be a reflection of the size and shape of the tool. Your work will look and feel more like Hollywood studio stuff by nature of the tool being more like those cameras. You'll walk without the camera to the next shot, think that shot through before you ever move the camera or sticks. You'll move furniture, you'll lay dolly track, you'll rig. A DSLR shooter frequently just brings the camera and uses it's viewfinder to choose the next shot....
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True to an extent that a heavy camera limits some options and forces an employment of a crew (like on a real studio shoot). But, at the same time, a light camera will enable a one-man band to shoot as if he had a crew, a crew that s/he otherwise would not have.

As it stands, I'd say A7s + an external 4K recorder with all the exposure aids + a gimbal would do as much but for a lot less. It's always a series of trade offs. Nonetheless ...
 
DLD said:
True to an extent that a heavy camera limits some options and forces an employment of a crew (like on a real studio shoot). But, at the same time, a light camera will enable a one-man band to shoot as if he had a crew, a crew that s/he otherwise would not have.

As it stands, I'd say A7s + an external 4K recorder with all the exposure aids + a gimbal would do as much but for a lot less. It's always a series of trade offs. Nonetheless ...
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You can rig a DSLR into a beast, and you can strip down an F35 to it's barest essentials. Once you've chosen a tool, these are the things you do to maximize it for given situations. I think my commentary has general merit for the intended question of why one might choose the F35 over a DSLR as a cinematic learning camera.
 
Viddovation said:
... I think my commentary has general merit for the intended question of why one might choose the F35 over a DSLR as a cinematic learning camera.
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I didn't say yours didn't. My point was that the OP might value the specific pros and cons of this case differently than you or I. (and that's before he uses either camera ... he may a different opinion afterwards).
 
Thanks a lot to all of you here on dvxuser for giving many thoughtful advices. The Sony F35 has basically been my “dream camera” for several months now and I have probably seen all the footages on Vimeo and Youtube. Yes, with Sony F35, one must truly plan all the shots, since it’s quite cumbersome to move around with.

Today I have sealed the deal for a Sony NEX-FS700R kit with 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 PZ OSS lens for 3.000 USD. That e-mount lens would fit the A7s, as well. Good to practice and learn the Vertigo-effect etc. I’m considering my current budget and the build-up around the Sony F35: instead I’ll be getting a second-hand DJI Ronin and a Phantom 3 Professional. It’s amazing what you can get for second hand value. Those are needed for a short film I’m planning. (for the slow-mo function, stabilized movement and aerial shots). So, I am excited like a kid in a candy store to use this gear! When I mentioned “investment” – for me it’s all about learning the craft of videography. Buying a new car is never an investment, and as soon it leaves the car dealer it immediately loses value and continues to be a heavy costly burden with gasoline, insurance etc. But this is what I want to be working with in the future.

Perhaps the Sony F35 is not for me “at the moment”, but something to look into when I have gained more experience and knowledge.

Thanks again!
 
Seraphimos said:
Thanks a lot to all of you here on dvxuser for giving many thoughtful advices. The Sony F35 has basically been my “dream camera” for several months now and I have probably seen all the footages on Vimeo and Youtube. Yes, with Sony F35, one must truly plan all the shots, since it’s quite cumbersome to move around with.

Today I have sealed the deal for a Sony NEX-FS700R kit with 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 PZ OSS lens for 3.000 USD. That e-mount lens would fit the A7s, as well. Good to practice and learn the Vertigo-effect etc. I’m considering my current budget and the build-up around the Sony F35: instead I’ll be getting a second-hand DJI Ronin and a Phantom 3 Professional. It’s amazing what you can get for second hand value. Those are needed for a short film I’m planning. (for the slow-mo function, stabilized movement and aerial shots). So, I am excited like a kid in a candy store to use this gear! When I mentioned “investment” – for me it’s all about learning the craft of videography. Buying a new car is never an investment, and as soon it leaves the car dealer it immediately loses value and continues to be a heavy costly burden with gasoline, insurance etc. But this is what I want to be working with in the future.

Perhaps the Sony F35 is not for me “at the moment”, but something to look into when I have gained more experience and knowledge.

Thanks again!
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Definitely invest in an Odyssey 7Q at some point, it's like an upgrade for the FS700.
 
I will be filming my dog which only has five months to live – before I travel to the States. Suffering from osteoarthritis. Having seen EVERYTHING on Youtube and Vimeo regard this subject.
 
I'd personally say an F3 would offer a much better starting point than an F35 as a learning camera. It offers PL mount and V_Lock capability with adapters, but doesn't force you into those options if they're too pricey (it has the same mount as the F5/55).

It's not Sony's best camera, but the picture quality is excellent and they can be had for knock-down prices. Also, you've got nearly everything you need to make it work built-in. No need to buy NDs, monitors, etc... to begin with. And you can build it up, invest in PL, batteries, better tripods, etc as time goes on.
 
JMtheDP said:
I'd personally say an F3 would offer a much better starting point than an F35 as a learning camera. It offers PL mount and V_Lock capability with adapters, but doesn't force you into those options if they're too pricey (it has the same mount as the F5/55).

It's not Sony's best camera, but the picture quality is excellent and they can be had for knock-down prices. Also, you've got nearly everything you need to make it work built-in. No need to buy NDs, monitors, etc... to begin with. And you can build it up, invest in PL, batteries, better tripods, etc as time goes on.
Click to expand...

Very good suggestion, very good compromise and a great camera.
 
JMtheDP said:
I'd personally say an F3 would offer a much better starting point than an F35 as a learning camera. It offers PL mount and V_Lock capability with adapters, but doesn't force you into those options if they're too pricey (it has the same mount as the F5/55).

It's not Sony's best camera, but the picture quality is excellent and they can be had for knock-down prices. Also, you've got nearly everything you need to make it work built-in. No need to buy NDs, monitors, etc... to begin with. And you can build it up, invest in PL, batteries, better tripods, etc as time goes on.
Click to expand...

+1
 
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