Sony F3 Firmware v1.5

Viddovation said:
Simply put, you should only buy things you need if the current price is justifiable. To borrow a REDism "Everything is subject to change."

I got burned on the Slog deal too, and it did annoy me, but that's a risk of being in business. Sony didn't just suddenly decide to screw us over - they adjusted to a new market paradigm that Canon forced on them.
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The difference is S-Log was at first a rentable feature that justified the price. Once it was free it wasn't something you can charge for. Epics are still rentable. Maybe not for as much, but you can eventually get your money out of them.

I'll agree with Peter that we need to make just enough noise about S-Log that there isn't a repeat. Especially since they are playing a similar game on having people buy keys for upgrades (like 4k on the FS700.)

It was a business decision on their part, but they knew it would take value and business away from their customers. They tried a rebate, but the products offered were of limited value and the terms were onerous. If you bought a used F3 and retail S-Log you could not take advantage of the rebates.

A much smarter move would have been simple terms. Proof of retail purchase of S-Log should result in a coupon usable on a multitude of products.
 
I never thought they'd be able to added a new codec. That's hardware encoded. However, the codec that's in there operates at different frame rates AND different data rates already. When it records faster rates for slow mo it exceeds 35Mbps.

I always catch flack when I say it, but I still think the chip could encode 50Mbps at 24fps because that would actually be less compression, not more. It would still be 4.2.0 and 8 bit, but it would be a desirable feature.
 
Duke M. said:
I never thought they'd be able to added a new codec. That's hardware encoded.
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I wouldnt think they could either...but Blackmagic has already firmware-upgraded their Shuttle codecs twice: DNXHD and Prores. Naturally alot of the same people who say they know without a doubt it can't be done said the same for the Shuttle. Nonetheless it's all speculation until the manufacturer says what they can or can't do. In this case Peter said it can't be done so be it. We will see if they somehow muster 60fps or not. :)
 
And the Canons were able to change their fps rate and data rate after the manufacturer said they couldn't and Magic Lantern proved them wrong. Still 8bit and 4.2.0 though.
 
i really don't see how Sony could consider it to be in their interest to erode the "tier" between the f3 and f5. i expect that the f3 has pretty much come to the end of its development and i'd be very surprised to see significant updates.

. . . while we're speculating.
 
MPB said:
. . . while we're speculating.
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After a month of F5/F55 speculation, we can do with a little F3 speculation now. Sony did solicite our requests for the firmware as you may recall.

And after all, they did announce the new firmware back in September. If it was some simple little menu change it would have been done long before now. Better control of the $14,000 lens that hardly anyone bought wouldn't seem to cut it.
 
Duke M. said:
And after all, they did announce the new firmware back in September. If it was some simple little menu change it would have been done long before now. Better control of the $14,000 lens that hardly anyone bought wouldn't seem to cut it.
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i don't see how the first sentence gets us to the ones that follow. the lens control is the only thing actually suggested by Sony. i don't see any reason to say an otherwise modest firmware update would be done by now.

i mean, i don't want to spoil everyone's fun. you speculate. . . i speculate. . . then we wait and see. :smile:
 
The current firmware does pretty much everything Sony ever promised the Sony PMW-F3 would be capable of. It's a mature product. We can quibble over whether it's the product we wanted, or what features we wish it had, but Sony's delivered on what they promised. And with the next generation of cameras on their way, we're unlikely to see Sony put much effort into new capabilities on what's essentially old hardware.

The support for the SCL-Z18X140 lens, which Duke so quickly dismisses, is something I've been waiting for quite awhile, and seeing as the new Sony F5 and F55 will support the same lens, I expect Sony will sell a few more of them yet. They're not fast, but with new firmware supporting external control, it makes a sensible lens for jib, aerial, vehicle, and other remote control applications in daylight.

Additionally, with the new Sony SxS+ cards coming to market, the firmware may also be neccessary to ensure compatibility. Of course, the F3 won't take advantage of the speed offered by the cards, but backwards compatibility would certainly be convenient for a number of reasons.

Otherwise, I think we may see minor adjustments for meta-data, and film workflow things like lens data that many of us don't use.

While it's possible that Sony will unlock the RGB 4:4:4 for everyone, I'm doubting it. Only older F3 units would take advantage of that, and with that upgrade currently available for $899, shipped on a 32GB sxS-1 card worth $350, I think Sony's not going to touch it.

As to enabling new recording bit-rates... we've been down this road before. While the hardware may support 50Mbps 4:2:0 8bit, I don't see the point. The BBC spec that so many people worried about is 50Mbps 4:2:2, and as far as actual image quality, I think the XDCAM-EX codec looks good enough. Furthermore, right now Sony has a stable XDCAM-EX ecosystem across multiple cameras, that can all play back files in camera, and be viewed on the XDCAM Browser software. While enabling 50 Mbps 4:2:0 8bit recording might not be difficult, it might take quite a bit of time and energy to quality control the fallout. What owner operators might enjoy could cause a number of issues for editors receiving the "new" footage from outside contract shooters.

If I had to guess as to why the update keeps getting pushed back, I'd say its to get the support for SxS+ cards locked in.
 
Viddovation said:
The support for the SCL-Z18X140 lens, which Duke so quickly dismisses, is something I've been waiting for quite awhile, and seeing as the new Sony F5 and F55 will support the same lens, I expect Sony will sell a few more of them yet. They're not fast, but with new firmware supporting external control, it makes a sensible lens for jib, aerial, vehicle, and other remote control applications in daylight.
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I remember there was a beta version at NAB or somewhere, but have they ever released fully supported, reasonably priced remote control for the F3? (If not, support for that lens isn't going to get you far.)
 
Duke M. said:
I remember there was a beta version at NAB or somewhere, but have they ever released fully supported, reasonably priced remote control for the F3? (If not, support for that lens isn't going to get you far.)
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Duke, considering that the F5 and F55 have already been stated to work with the SCL-Z18X140, but don't have internal rockers, it makes sense that Sony will release the remote control unit. It may end up being $1000, but even so, that's not so much in the grand scheme of things.

Let's get a few things straight.
1. The lens is $9,700. $14k may be a list price, but no one is paying it.
2. If operated from the shoulder, you can disable the servo zoom, and manually control everything. This would work just fine on the F5 and F55.
3. The lens isn't neccasarily one to buy, but one that you can rent for application specific uses.
 
Viddovation said:
Duke, considering that the F5 and F55 have already been stated to work with the SCL-Z18X140, but don't have internal rockers, it makes sense that Sony will release the remote control unit. It may end up being $1000, but even so, that's not so much in the grand scheme of things.

Let's get a few things straight.
1. The lens is $9,700. $14k may be a list price, but no one is paying it.
2. If operated from the shoulder, you can disable the servo zoom, and manually control everything. This would work just fine on the F5 and F55.
3. The lens isn't neccasarily one to buy, but one that you can rent for application specific uses.
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I'm not saying the lens is bad or useless, merely it won't fit the way many people want to shoot. With a limited number of people wanting to use it firmware to support it won't be huge to many.
 
Duke M. said:
I'm not saying the lens is bad or useless, merely it won't fit the way many people want to shoot. With a limited number of people wanting to use it firmware to support it won't be huge to many.
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True. My point is, I don't think Sony is doing a firmware update for the many, just to fix small things. No indications have been given by Sony that they plan to make serious alterations to how the camera works.
 
yoclay said:
Everything depends on whether they will continue to sell the F3 and want to support it's pricing.
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i'm still not seeing it. a camera's shelf life is not traditionally determined by the rate or frequency of augmentations issued by the manufacturer. they could sit on the camera for years in its current configuration. its viability going forwards depends on a number of factors that as yet remain to be seen.

given the products Sony has positioned on either side of the f3, i see more room for downward pressure on the price than for further development that might take a bite out of the line between the f3 and the f5. even assuming a street price of around $17k (for argument's sake), the price they'll be wanting to support is the f5's.

if i were buying a camera now, i can't see why i wouldn't spend a few thousand more and get the f5. why would Sony want to discourage that decision?
 
Peter G. Johnson said:
I agree! My job doesn't involve using a camera, but my passion for photography last year led me to take a punt on the expensive PMW-F3 camera to achieve the cinematic look and then this would be supposedly enhanced with the CBK-RGB01 firmware, which turned out to be the Sony con of the decade. I lost thousands of dollars on that scheme and then Sony's response was to offer a rebate on a hugely expensive zoom lens or hugely expensive external recorder. I am still sore from being ripped off. It was just a.... money.... grabbing.... exercise.... and didn't benefit the customer one iota unless you had equally expensive peripherals at the time. The F5 and F55 have now made the CBK-RGB01 completely useless, all the space of 12 months!

Hope that a faceless Sony rep is reading this. I either want my $3600 back or offer me a free prime lens from the new collection.
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I too purchased the F3 just when it came out and paid the full price for the SLOG update but was never offered any rebate on any Sony product! Who should have contacted me about this, I purchased from CVP in the UK - they didn't come back to me. Do you think I would/ could still be due something. Can anyone from Sony help?
 
Caveat emptor.

The Canon C300 was released at a competitive price to the Sony F3 with Canon CLog included in the base price. If that had not occurred, Sony would not have reduced the price on the CBK-RGB01, and included SLog & 444 on newer F3 units.

Sony doesn't owe you a rebate. Not legally. No promises were made.

They responded to a market force. What you're whining about is competition in the marketplace.
 
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Sparky874 said:
I too purchased the F3 just when it came out and paid the full price for the SLOG update but was never offered any rebate on any Sony product! Who should have contacted me about this, I purchased from CVP in the UK - they didn't come back to me. Do you think I would/ could still be due something. Can anyone from Sony help?
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I think there was something on the Sony website ages ago. I don't know if its still there or still valid. B&H is usually pretty good about posting rebates on their site too.
 
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Originally Posted by Peter G. Johnson
I agree! My job doesn't involve using a camera, but my passion for photography last year led me to take a punt on the expensive PMW-F3 camera to achieve the cinematic look and then this would be supposedly enhanced with the CBK-RGB01 firmware, which turned out to be the Sony con of the decade. I lost thousands of dollars on that scheme and then Sony's response was to offer a rebate on a hugely expensive zoom lens or hugely expensive external recorder. I am still sore from being ripped off. It was just a.... money.... grabbing.... exercise.... and didn't benefit the customer one iota unless you had equally expensive peripherals at the time. The F5 and F55 have now made the CBK-RGB01 completely useless, all the space of 12 months!

Hope that a faceless Sony rep is reading this. I either want my $3600 back or offer me a free prime lens from the new collection.


Sparky874 said:
I too purchased the F3 just when it came out and paid the full price for the SLOG update but was never offered any rebate on any Sony product! Who should have contacted me about this, I purchased from CVP in the UK - they didn't come back to me. Do you think I would/ could still be due something. Can anyone from Sony help?
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While I understand people getting pissed off about seeing their equipment investments dissolve in value so swiftly I just have to point out that all this now is the "norm" and if we play in this game of digital/electronic/video camera gear ownership this is going to happen again and again. Even though many are saying that the F5 / F55, ( particularly the F55 ), is "future proof" to a large degree, we'll see....I wouldn't place a bet on that myself. Watch this space two years or so hence...

"Whining" may be too strong an adjective to use, but in essence Viddovation is right, we should expect this to happen all the time now and in the future. This after all is how companies like Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Apple et al, stay in business......They have to continually innovate and improve, or they die.
What I really would like to see, and this would be a tipping point for me to move up from the F3 down the road, would be an ability to be able to upgrade the sensors / guts of a camera system like I used to be able to do with my Aatons, what Red does to some degree, and what Leica promised to do once with their digital M's but then failed to deliver on that.

Oh yes, one other thing. The much maligned SCL-Z18X140 Sony zoom. It took me too long to buy one, so long that I missed the promotional discount offer. I was largely put off by the negative postings on this and other sites about that lens. However I did eventually buy it back in May this year and haven't regretted it for one moment. It's a great tool to have with the F series cameras, all Sony has to do is improve the zoom control options and that will make this an extremely useful lens indeed. Works very well for me....
 
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