Sony Cinema Line & FX6

puredrifting said:
If I owned an FS7 and an A7 SIII, no way in hell I would buy an FX6 unless I needed a tax write off. Even though the FX6 is really small and light, the A7 SIII is lighter and smaller, which is generally better for gimbal use. Same reason I don't mount my C200 or 300 MKII on a one handed gimbal, that's just a recipe for awkwardness and fatigue. The X-T3 on the gimbal is a dream, I've shot fiull 12-13 hours days with it on the gimbal for a documentary.

The color science on the newer cameras is generally superior to the FS7 color science SOOC as I am sure you've discovered with your A7 SIII, but if you color most of your stuff or your clients do, FS7 with log can look great. Like everything, let your business model dictate your gear acquisition.
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For sure. All of my gear purchases are completely dictated by business. But then working faster and easier and perhaps saving time is also saving $ in the long run. For my 2 cents, I think the Cinetone is pure marketing genius from Sony... they have made many of the same people - who often said Sony color - yuck - believe the "color science" is now vastly improved / different. In my view, it was such a small tweak.

Paul F said:
I almost feel the FX6 is a step backwards from the FS7. Moving to full-frame is not appealing. It's being done to sell cameras and people are going for it. I really admire how easily customers can be manipulated. As we pondered a while back, once the full-frame market has been saturated by the manufacturers, you have to wonder where they will take us next.

As Morgan said, the audio on the grip is almost embarrassing. It's so cheesy.
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I don't disagree with this... Frankly, if the FX6 were s35... if would be more appealing to me. But Sony is certainly trying to sell lenses with the direction they've gone (with AF, etc.). I wish I had started investing in FF e mount glass when I first bought my FS7... but then I'm so old school I never thought I'd even ponder shooting AF. But seeing is believing. Using AF with gimbal on A7sIII has certainly made me see the future.
 
As far as Sony's color science...the change is a part of business not only when you're flipping through different sensors but when you're also continuing to improve your products as a good company.

Almost all cameras have various generations of color which the companies improve on through hardware and software. (Some choose to update older systems with the newer color and others don't.)

Cinetone and its color are only related because they are both new.

Cinetone is Sony's best attempt thus far at what ARRI and Blackmagic and to some extent Canon (with WDR) have been doing for many years and that is providing an out-of-the-box setting with decent color and DR (with a compromise).

RED has mastered this through REDCODE via post.
 
Despite all of this labor of choice, people who bought a C500ii and R5 are just out there doing work The last year, and don’t have to upgrade.

And those with the FX9 can just pick up an A7s3
 
morgan_moore said:
Still sony are naughty with schoolboy errors in design - no jack for scratch sound :( - generally that top handle is a fail.
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The FX6 does have a scratch audio mic built into the body (in addition to the one on the handle), which from the brief sample I heard (on the Potatojet video I think) sounds perfectly sufficient for a scratch source (for doing waveform-based audio sync).
 
scorsesefan said:
Do you think your clients (even weddings) would take issue at all with you bringing a munchkin like the FX6 to a shoot as your A-Cam, Abe?
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Thinking about it some more - clients demanding FS7 or C300mk2 has basically always been about codecs or SDI out/timecode. So, unless the client is biased towards the higher end camera or had some other cameraman tell them that the FX6 is prosumer, I dont see any reason why the FX6 can't take the same jobs. (Unless you need more than 2 xlr inputs or something)
 
"You can buy the fx9 loupe for it, annoying it doesn't come with it but still possible as its the exact same screen as fx9"

Is the FX9 loupe any good? I seem to remember hearing complaints about it. The Zacuto option looks nice but far too heavy for the FX6.
 
scorsesefan said:
Videomaker review of the FX6. Their tests confirm Sony 15+ stop DR claim. Now we wait for Cined's 11.5 stop test result ;)
https://www.videomaker.com/reviews/cameras/sony-fx6-reviewed-the-lowlight-cinema-camera-king/
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lol, so true.

Based on they SNR 2:1 rating, they are likely to hit somewhere around 12.5, is my guess. However, it could be interesting if they turn NR suppression to low or off.

The interesting thing about the DR numbers of cameras that do in camera NR, is that there isn't much to dig up in post, it's just the Noise floor.
 
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ahalpert said:
I've never shot a wedding with the fs7. no need, plus a smaller, less obtrusive camera is preferable. i've used my c300 plenty at weddings. but right now i'm doing a7siii and gh5, with gh4 (or 5dmk3 depending on my mood) when i need a 3rd angle. a7iv would be nice and then i'd do a7siii, a7iv and gh5.

fs7 is certainly more impressive-looking than fx6. no one would turn me away with an fx6 though, unless they had specifically requested something else. and the vast majority of the shoots I do are not specific about the camera request. they just need 4k or they just need 10-bit 4k. and they need log or they need not-log.

but i'm curious to see where the people who DO request the fs7 or c300mk2 etc end up. but certainly with matching codecs + sdi out and TC, it's hard to see why the fx6 can't do what the fs7 does. BUT some measure of those camera requests are based on prestige/price of the camera and the not wholly unfounded assumption that a higher price tier camera is superior. so are there people who might request an fx9 or an fs7 but not an fx6? maybe.
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Sony FS7mk2 is currently only a couple of grand more expensive than the FX6 is.

Plus the FS7mk1 itself was seen as a "cheap" camera when first released (vs the competition back then), I think the FX6 is just part of the general pressure on prices coming down.

The C300mk1 was the dominant camera in the low/mid range for its generation, then the FS7 took that spot away from the C300mk1 (the C300mk2 was never as successful as the C300mk1) and the FS7 has been almost everywhere. I predict the Sony FX6 is going to be "that camera" which is the replacement in the market for the FS7 in terms of dominant market share in the low/mid range for professionals of this camera generation.

As what other camera is there which can take over from the FS7 in the #1 position?
Komodo won't be it. Neither will any URSA Mini currently out. No chance of Z Cam or Kinefinity breaking through and getting the #1 spot with this camera generational cycle.

So who does this leave? Conventional thinking would suggest it is going to be a big battle between the Sony FX9 or Canon C300mk3 as to who takes the mantle as #1 from the FS7.

But I don't think so, the general pricing trend is making folks look at sub $10K camera bodies, not ones priced above that. And the pandemic and general economic recession we're in is only going to accelerate this trend towards cheaper bodies rather than more expensive ones.

Thus it looks like instead a contest between the Canon C70 vs Sony FX6??? I expect the C70 to be successful, but I can't see it taking the #1 spot in the low/mid budget commercial market from the FS7. But the FX6 might do that.

Thus logically it makes sense that the FX6 will be the dominant low/mid tier camera of this generation, unless something else new comes out soon to challenge this conclusion.

But who could do this??? (that hasn't been mentioned already, as we're not for instance going to see a C70mk2 or Komodo Mk2 announced tomorrow)
A JVC LS300 mk2? I highly doubt it.
Perhaps a Panasonic EVA2?? Unlikely, but at least not a total impossibility either. But Panasonic would need to release the EVA2 soon, before FX6 gets too much of a head start (at least the pandemic will slow down the uptake of any new camera, which gives Panasonic a few extra months of breathing room). And the EVA2 would have to be groundbreaking itself, to really make itself stand out from the FX6.
 
Fx6 is the new PD150

C70 is the XL1

now Panasonic needs a new DVX!!!
 
IronFilm said:
Sony FS7mk2 is currently only a couple of grand more expensive than the FX6 is.

Plus the FS7mk1 itself was seen as a "cheap" camera when first released (vs the competition back then), I think the FX6 is just part of the general pressure on prices coming down.

The C300mk1 was the dominant camera in the low/mid range for its generation, then the FS7 took that spot away from the C300mk1 (the C300mk2 was never as successful as the C300mk1) and the FS7 has been almost everywhere. I predict the Sony FX6 is going to be "that camera" which is the replacement in the market for the FS7 in terms of dominant market share in the low/mid range for professionals of this camera generation.
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Yeah, but the fs7mk2 was like $10k at launch, similar to the $11k fx9. Prices naturally come down over time because it's old tech. But some aspects of superior build quality etc are reflected in that higher price tier (which is close to 2x the FX6 even if it's just several $k.)

I actually think it's likelier that we won't see a single dominant camera in this generation (or possibly ever again at this level of production).

The c300mk1 was the first honest to goodness S35 HD video camera. The FS7 was the first S35 4K60p video camera. Each had basically no competitors in this price tier/form factor to begin with. And then things like eva1 with somewhat compromised codecs (only long GOP 4k60 IIRC) as well as seeming flimsier.

So, I agree with you that the FX6 is probably the direct spiritual descendant of the FS7 and reflects a downward price trend. But I think that there are more cameras that will foot the bill these days.

Certainly, no one would turn you away if you had a C300mk3. Some clients may always demand Canon color.

But I remember when the C500mk2 and FX9 were launched - the consensus was that the FX9 would triumph and take all the FS7 owners and that Canon had missed the mark on price and features.

But the later consensus until yesterday was that the FX9 had missed the mark and the C300mk3 would dominate.

I'm getting whiplash
 
Grug said:
The FX6 does have a scratch audio mic built into the body (in addition to the one on the handle), which from the brief sample I heard (on the Potatojet video I think) sounds perfectly sufficient for a scratch source (for doing waveform-based audio sync).
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OK yes a scratch mic for hearing a clap or, and I like the way it faces the operator, someone barking the time, but I guess not much good for getting some general ambience like a topmic would pick up.
This drives the need to absolutely have a second device for getting some sound. I have a SD 702 but its still a pain.

Im from the (old) school that 'a picture without sound is a dead picture' and like some noise.

Ive banged on for ever about S+Q having no sound because that pushes me towards two devices. Often amient sound doesnt really have to match the picture but just paint a picture !

Here Im in SQ on the FS7 and am forced to have an EX1 (with the F3 stereo mic) rolling for ambient sound, https://vimeo.com/273347902 fine, but slows the edit.
 
scorsesefan said:
Videomaker review of the FX6. Their tests confirm Sony 15+ stop DR claim. Now we wait for Cined's 11.5 stop test result ;)
https://www.videomaker.com/reviews/cameras/sony-fx6-reviewed-the-lowlight-cinema-camera-king/
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Unfortunately Videomaker have fudged their test from the get go - you use the first two strips to set the white clipping point (bringing the second up to the level of the fully-clipped first strip, in order to set a baseline).

And even if you assume they've nailed the clipping point exactly, you can still only count 13 stops on their chart before you're hitting the noise floor on the 14th strip (there's not going to be any useful information in that 14th stop). But regardless, we can't know anyway without the test chart being shot properly.
 
No one should expect almost any camera to have more than 14 stops because it would be one of the few record-breaking DR cameras if it did.

If I were betting, I would say the FX6 will not be a record-breaking DR camera.

At best - with the current state of DR - you can expect between 13-14 for everything (like a realistic consensus). 12.5-13.5 is pretty normal.
 
That looks great, Sam. What was the lut or cc approach? Colors look rich.

And a damn fine performance for a center-cropped nikon 50-300.

Nice edit for a fast turnaround, too. Especially with random gopro footage from the fliers?

Certainly see what you mean about the sound. I like that we can record sound in 4k120p on A7SIII and fx6
 
NorBro said:
No one should expect almost any camera to have more than 14 stops because it would be one of the few record-breaking DR cameras if it did.

If I were betting, I would say the FX6 will not be a record-breaking DR camera.

At best - with the current state of DR - you can expect between 13-14 for everything (like a realistic consensus). 12.5-13.5 is pretty normal.
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It is so weird, because Arri (and the Venice sort of) is the only camera to have enough DR to not look so video in challenging situations. Gemini and Monstro are very close, and have some other advantages in resolution and price. But really that 14stops DR is a really important line for digital video to cross. Every fraction of a stop under that really does matter between current cameras. 12.5 is no slouch, and most everything can be shot with that kind of latitude, but it certainly isn't going to not look like video.

But as you know, I am talking about getting video into that organic look with insanely good looking feathered roll off to clipping, and clean rich shadows. and proper contrast in the mids.
 
James0b57 said:
It is so weird, because Arri (and the Venice sort of) is the only camera to have enough DR to not look so video in challenging situations. Gemini and Monstro are very close, and have some other advantages in resolution and price. But really that 14stops DR is a really important line for digital video to cross. Every fraction of a stop under that really does matter between current cameras. 12.5 is no slouch, and most everything can be shot with that kind of latitude, but it certainly isn't going to not look like video.

But as you know, I am talking about getting video into that organic look with insanely good looking feathered roll off to clipping, and clean rich shadows. and proper contrast in the mids.
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What about the vast number of scenes that have less contrast than 14 stops? Do you still think it makes an impact there?
 
ahalpert said:
That looks great, Sam. What was the lut or cc approach? Colors look rich.

And a damn fine performance for a center-cropped nikon 50-300.

Nice edit for a fast turnaround, too. Especially with random gopro footage from the fliers?

Certainly see what you mean about the sound. I like that we can record sound in 4k120p on A7SIII and fx6
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The gopro stuff was a massive boon - really made it and I didnt even direct them - basiccally was editing in the crew room and just hoovered it all up.

My standard 'video' FS7 look is Slog2,add standard LUT, add some contrast/sat, remove a little red sat remove some LUM sat in shadows and highlights.

I though the nikon was soft.. Im not sure I got true infinity focus with the cheapo adapter - its really hard to test infinity focus in a studio (!) and actually very rare for me to use infinity (or rather focus set a 2km) - so reasons the plane footage was soft..??
-S+Q quality drop
-Nikon vintage lens not enough resolution for crop mode
-lens adapter too long (by 1/10th of a mm) and not allowing infinity focus
-operator incompetence

The Typhoon is so fast I had worries that I migt be coming back from the show with no footage of it. Finding it with a '200-600' was hard. Another advantage of proper ENG lenses

Ive done fullframe 4k with the same lens and it is sharp in that mode, really sharp.

One tradgedy of the airshow was (jammed in a too small press area) I managed to kick over the FS7 and 50-300 while fiddling with the EX1 and dented the nikkor and ripped the rear mount off. Nikon Kingston got me the parts to fix it.. amazing for a 1980s lens.
 
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Possibly dumb question - what do you mean LUM sat? You mean desaturate shadows and highlights based on their luma values, right?

I thought the plane footage had clarity. Of course, I'm watching in vimeo on my phone. But it had a punchy look. And a nice look.

There are reasons people still like Nikon. No matter what DLD and the death watch crowd say...
 
Yep desaturate highlights and shadows.

The opening shot is soft - the tornado and red arrows maybe not.

I think I had three lens adapters with me and swapped them around.
 
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