Sony A7SIII = $3500, 10-bit 4K120p internal, 16-bit 4K60p RAW out

puredrifting said:
...All of your cams are 100Mbps 4:2:0 or less. I can't recall but aren't some of the data rates from the A7 SIII up to 600-700Mbps at 10-bit? I would think that factor in itself makes the A7 SIII a whole new paradigm as far as hear generation...I have not heard any overheating issues with the S1H, has anyone else?
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Much of our material from 2016-2018 was 100 Mbps 4:2:0 XAVC-S, since then it has been 500 Mbps ProRes 422 via Atomos. Usually the cameras aren't recording internally but sometimes we'll do internal for a backup. We expect going forward to usually record 10-bit ProRes 422 or 12-bit ProRes RAW externally but we might do some limited internal recording. A nice feature of the A7SIII is it does good quality 1080p which is handy for long-form material and some interviews. Some previous 4k mirrorless cameras didn't do great 1080p.

So if heat is related to high bitrate internal recording, we normally won't be doing that because our postproduction workflow requires ProRes, and we want to avoid transcoding if possible. But lots of people will be using the internal codecs and to the extent that affects heat, they must test for that. We don't have the S1H but we have a S1 and it's been used in very hot outside conditions with no shutdowns to my knowledge.

We also have some BMPCC4k and Ursa cameras but they are generally used for indoor fixed-location interviews. Codec for those is also ProRes 422. We just don't use them outside much. For all I know if a BMPCC4k or Ursa was powered up and left baking in direct noonday sun for 1-2 hr maybe it would be affected. Even if it didn't shut down if the black case got so hot from the sun I couldn't touch it, I'd be afraid the color or some other aspect might be affected.
 
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The Sony A7sIII DR is just fantastic looking. Looks like it has hit that RED territory. Colour Science has to be up there with RED too.

Now the main thing left is beating Alexa in DR.
 
James0b57 said:
The Sony A7sIII DR is just fantastic looking. Looks like it has hit that RED territory. Colour Science has to be up there with RED too.

Now the main thing left is beating Alexa in DR.
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And not looking so "video-ish". I've seen some nice shots but they all have that very sharp, hyper detailed Sonly look that I didn't see on the FX9. Hard to put my finger on what it is exactly
but most of the A7 SIII just looks like hyper clean, sharp video. Kind of like REDs can look.
 
puredrifting said:
And not looking so "video-ish". I've seen some nice shots but they all have that very sharp, hyper detailed Sonly look that I didn't see on the FX9. Hard to put my finger on what it is exactly
but most of the A7 SIII just looks like hyper clean, sharp video. Kind of like REDs can look.
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Could it be sharpening you can't turn off? Some of the A7SIII has looked a bit better but mostly I agree with you

Of course, you can shoot RED without sharpening but I feel like redusers use it a lot
 
puredrifting said:
And not looking so "video-ish". I've seen some nice shots but they all have that very sharp, hyper detailed Sonly look that I didn't see on the FX9. Hard to put my finger on what it is exactly
but most of the A7 SIII just looks like hyper clean, sharp video. Kind of like REDs can look.
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Haha, I am never quite sure what to make of comments about "sharpness" anymore. ...Especially with everyone obsessed with downsampling.

With the F55 vs F35, I found that the video look of the F55 was in the contrast curve. But most cameras with less than Alexa DR, they just run out of room to get a nice tone curve, and either noise or highlights give up. With the F35, they sacrificed sensitivity, and split the difference on noise and highlights. It clipped a little abruptly in really high contrast situations, although, despite its limits, it did so more gracefully than any other similarly specs 12stops DR camera I have seen so far.

The other day I was shooting with the Alexa into the sun, and that roll off was so nice to have in that situation. After using the RED for a while, I was pleasantly surprised, as Arri is not THAT far ahead in DR, but that little bit extra still makes a huge difference in wild light. I probably could have gotten similar results with the RED, but I doubt the highlights would have gone as gracefully
 
BTW, even in SLOG, the F55 and F35 were very different.

Yes, two different mappings to a LOG profile. Meaning log is not exactly linear.
 
Now F35 vs RED MX, you get two cameras that actually use a similar amount of photo sites, and yet one is sharp yet smooth HD, and the other was often called "too sharp", and yet that was often blamed on the resolution, rather than sharpening and contrast. As time has shown that the RED MX is not resolving that much more than true 2K. Also, the two sensors had similar DR, yet one was filmic, and the other "videoish".

Hence why I am never quite sure where others are coming from when they say things like "video" and "sharp" etc. Most often they are correct in the sense of things, but vague about the reason.
 
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ahalpert said:
Could it be sharpening you can't turn off? Some of the A7SIII has looked a bit better but mostly I agree with you

Of course, you can shoot RED without sharpening but I feel like redusers use it a lot
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Count me amongst the vague, I can't find the terminology to explain it other than it could possibly be something in the DSP and how processes cadence? I can't put my finger on it but to me, the times I have
shot REDs, the last time was with the Epic Dragon, the image just has a very clean, digital video feel to it that I also see in the A7 SIII imagery. It's not bad at all, I've made some pretty pictures with REDs, but
it reminds of of the old days of the Sony EX1 and EX3 when I was shooting my Panasonic HPX170. The Sonys had much higher resolution but they also had this super clean, almost sterile video quality to them.
My HPX170 had grain and some mojo to it that the Sony's didn't have at all. My HPX170 totally reminded me of shooting S16 on my Arri SR2. With the Sonys, not so much, it felt like video.

i get a similar sense with the A7 SIII. It's not that the images don't look great, they do, but they don't look or feel like the R5/6 images at all.
 
For those who have been wanting the FX9, Sony has 48 months financing with zero interest. Very tempting!
 
I agree. I also downloaded the A7SIII bike footage that was posted a few pages back in this thread and graded them. The dynamic rage is very, very good. Probably as good as I've ever seen from a DSLR/mirrorless camera. But I did perceive a somewhat "sharpened" look especially compared to the R5 images that I have had a go at. The R5 8K or 8K to 4K images have an incredible amount of detail without looking sharpened. I would like to see what the RAW videos from the A7SIII's ProRes RAW looks like and whether that sharpened look is not really seen with it. It's not a show stopper as the videos grade very well and like I said the dynamic range is crazy good.
 
Teddy_Dem said:
I would like to see what the RAW videos from the A7SIII's ProRes RAW looks like and whether that sharpened look is not really seen with it.
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Oy I don't want to be tethered to a recorder. But I suppose I would also get 12-bit log raw from 16-bit linear...

Philip Bloom said that you can't turn off noise reduction, but that if you record RAW you can bypass it. That's what made me think the same may be true for sharpening.

In any case, I take some comfort in thinking that aspects of "video-ish", motion cadence, or sharpening are probably beyond the aesthetic sensitivity of 95% of my clients... (even though I like to think that people are affected by things they dont consciously acknowledge)
 
ahalpert said:
Oy I don't want to be tethered to a recorder. But I suppose I would also get 12-bit log raw from 16-bit linear...

Philip Bloom said that you can't turn off noise reduction, but that if you record RAW you can bypass it. That's what made me think the same may be true for sharpening.

In any case, I take some comfort in thinking that aspects of "video-ish", motion cadence, or sharpening are probably beyond the aesthetic sensitivity of 95% of my clients... (even though I like to think that people are affected by things they dont consciously acknowledge)
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Yes, I think most people would not notice it at all, certainly not anybody who doesn't spend time pixel-peeping as much we do. I feel like the general audience only really notices if your audio is screwed up or if your image is too dark or too overexposed. But very minor things like sharpening or motion cadence are not picked up by them, unless it is an extreme case.
 
Teddy_Dem said:
Yes, I think most people would not notice it at all, certainly not anybody who doesn't spend time pixel-peeping as much we do. I feel like the general audience only really notices if your audio is screwed up or if your image is too dark or too overexposed. But very minor things like sharpening or motion cadence are not picked up by them, unless it is an extreme case.
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Agreed.

Also - maybe I shouldn't knock the external recording option so much. It's pretty badass that it sends out 16-bit RAW (although we've become somewhat accustomed to it by the S1H etc) and I think the RAW is the most manageable of the currently currently available options - 4K ProRes RAW (and up to 60p which not all can do). Outside of the pocket and UMP (and maybe the sigma fp if you want to be generous), I think this is the most edit-friendly and file size-friendly RAW in its class
 
ahalpert said:
...maybe I shouldn't knock the external recording option so much....
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If you ever plan on using an external monitor, even a small 5" one, those are HDMI connected and about the same size and weight as a Ninja V. We even use those on all our gimbals, just not camera mounted. Before switching to ProRes acquisition, we generally used 5" or 7" monitors anyway for waveform, better visibility of manual focus, and due to larger size for the director's "over the shoulder check". After switching mostly to the Ninja V, it's both a monitor and recorder, uses the same battery, so little difference in form factor. Using a NATO rail and SmallRig or Tilta cage, the monitor/recorder mounts within seconds. We formerly used the older Zacuto EVF Pro on several cameras but now that monitor/recorders are brighter we use those. The 9.4 megadot A7SIII EVF is a nice option, although it might need an eyecup for certain conditions.

Due to the greatly improved internal codecs, the A7SIII doesn't require an external recorder, so at least you have the option of 10-bit 4:2:2 All-Intra internal recording. However -- while All-Intra is often characterized as "easy to edit", this is highly variable based on hardware, NLE, version of NLE, timeline complexity, etc. so you never know whether transcoding will be required or not.
 
The last two pages are what is giving me pause to jump on the A7SIII. I know customers will probably not notice, but I will. As a sole proprietor, I think it is very important to represent your vision as you are the only person selling it. In the end, either camera is making fantastic images. I just feel like if I went with the R5, I would want to bend it less in the edit bay. If the Canon can work with regards to nonHQ quality or external recording, I think it has the better looking image out of the two. Splitting hairs though and some people prefer the more modern look of the Sony. Great to have choices!
 
Bassman2003 said:
The last two pages are what is giving me pause to jump on the A7SIII. I know customers will probably not notice, but I will. As a sole proprietor, I think it is very important to represent your vision as you are the only person selling it.
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I dunno...a lot of people have made a lot of money with sony "video-ish" cameras...

I also like the looked of the cinematch "Alexa-like" grade that was posted earlier. That sounds like an easy, painless workflow

And the Manny Ortiz video showed me I could get good colors SOOC, though hopefully with a less contrasty profile as well
 
joema said:
If you ever plan on using an external monitor, even a small 5" one, those are HDMI connected and about the same size and weight as a Ninja V.
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This is true. But it's nice to have the capability to shoot without any rigging or accessories sometimes. I'd hate to be in a position where I'm like, "oh no! I can't pull my monitor/recorder or I'll be sharpened to hell!)

But honestly I think it will be fine
 
puredrifting said:
Count me amongst the vague, I can't find the terminology to explain it other than it could possibly be something in the DSP and how processes cadence? I can't put my finger on it but to me, the times I have
shot REDs, the last time was with the Epic Dragon, the image just has a very clean, digital video feel to it that I also see in the A7 SIII imagery. It's not bad at all, I've made some pretty pictures with REDs, but
it reminds of of the old days of the Sony EX1 and EX3 when I was shooting my Panasonic HPX170. The Sonys had much higher resolution but they also had this super clean, almost sterile video quality to them.
My HPX170 had grain and some mojo to it that the Sony's didn't have at all. My HPX17
0 totally reminded me of shooting S16 on my Arri SR2. With the Sonys, not so much, it felt like video.

i get a similar sense with the A7 SIII. It's not that the images don't look great, they do, but they don't look or feel like the R5/6 images at all.
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The first two clips are Sony F55, the last one BMD P6K:

 
ahalpert said:
Oy I don't want to be tethered to a recorder. But I suppose I would also get 12-bit log raw from 16-bit linear...

Philip Bloom said that you can't turn off noise reduction, but that if you record RAW you can bypass it. That's what made me think the same may be true for sharpening.

In any case, I take some comfort in thinking that aspects of "video-ish", motion cadence, or sharpening are probably beyond the aesthetic sensitivity of 95% of my clients... (even though I like to think that people are affected by things they dont consciously acknowledge)
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It's not native 16bit linear, the sensor operate in 12bit linear and it's then dithered by the ISP to 16bit.
 
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