Sony A58 vs D5300

[sleroux]

>> First, the story:
If you already have read some of my posts, you know that audio/video is not my primary job. But I have (<- and "I like that") to record some training videos for our students. If the result is good enough, we will probably start to convert to video most of our students labs and assignments in 2014-2015.

We will start "real" shooting on June for a "preproduction" of 2 or 3 short videos (half an our each). I spend some time on the audio stuff first, as I thing this is really important. Not perfect for now, but in its good way.

We've done this week some video tests. I used a Canon HF G25 camcorder and a colleague of mine used an iPad. I think the camcorder is a little bit ahead, but not that far. But, to be honest, both videos are probably "good enought" ... but not "great": I don't know how to explain that. It's like watching one of those "television film" shoot on video. It gave some feeling of "cheapness". I think it's maybe the (too) great deep of field? Or some kind of lack of consistences between takes?

>> Now, the question:
Anyway, I'd like to give a try to HDSLR video recording instead. With a greater control over the various exposition settings, I expect something more like what I have in mind. Or at least, if the result is "bad", I would only have to blame myself. Since I use Minolta SLR for years (from the first Dynax/Maxxum 7000, to the latest Minolta branded Dynax/Maxxum 7D) I already have some experience on still photography ... and few lens at hand.
The only compatible HDSLR is currently the Sony Alpha 58. I don't see many reviews about its video quality. My other option would be to switch to the Nikon D5300. But, financially speaking, there is a huge gap ... and I would be very ... hem ... embarrassed if I wasn't able to justify that 300€ difference (not mentioning lens :/ ).


Well, some idea about Sony a58 .vs. Nikon D5300? Does it worth the difference?
- Sylvain.

 

[Roberto Suarez]

Well, I think is totally worth the effort: the d5300 has no moire, no aliasing, better dinamic range. According to what I read, the sony IQ is in the same ballpark with the canon APS-C

 

[Michael Carter]

I just shot all weekend on location with the D7100 and a rented 5300. They're both among the best of the DSLR video world, perhaps the best for the sub $1k range. The 5300 even gives you really nice 60p at 1080.

The main drawback with these guys is you can't change aperture in live view unless you have an aperture ring lens.

 

[sleroux]

Thanks Roberto & Michael for your answers.

Clearly, the Sony Alpha 58 and the D5300 don't play in the same league. The only reason I was considering the Sony A58 was to be able to use my old Minolta-A lens. But it wouldn't probably be wise to go that way. From what I read, and to quote Roberto, "[the D5300] totally worth the effort".

I will have to give up using those lens for video and buy some 35mm and/or 50mm Nikkor f/1.8. One more question thought:

The main drawback with these guys is you can't change aperture in live view unless you have an aperture ring lens.

I read that several times on the forum. Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but why is it some important to be able to change aperture in live?

 

[Michael Carter]

Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but why is it some important to be able to change aperture in live?

When you're setting up a shot, even using a light meter, you generally want to evaluate what you're seeing. Are shadows plugged up or highlights blowing, is there a hot spot that still needs detail held? Is there a light or dark area that's standing out too much in the composition?

If you have a look in mind that requires a certain DOF, you still will often have a half stop on either side that still maintains the DOF/feel. If that doesn't get the shot you need, you might adjust ISO or filtration or even shutter speed. But generally, your f-stop is where you'll dial in final exposure, and often for run & gun sorts of things, you'll adjust the iris if conditions change.

But being able to change any and all of those parameters (aperture, ISO, shutter and ND... and white balance as well) and see how it affects the exposure overall is pretty standard. To jump out of live view, close down a third, and hit live view again... it's a pain compared to watching the change in increments. Often you'll use the aperture to judge how much ND you need for instance... if a closing down 2 stops does the job but kills your desired DOF, you know instantly to grab a .6 filter.

I try to check the histogram on every shot before committing - on the D7100, you just have playback set to histo view, roll a second of footage, and hit "play" - you don't even have to hit "run", the histogram shows up for the still frame (I don't think the 5300 has a histogram display, ouch). You have to wait for the timeout or hit LV again to get back to shooting - but it's of immense value (to me anyway) to see exactly how my exposure is filling up the DR, and it's usually a "final check", not an adjustment, so I don't mind the extra 2-seconds and button presses. But for setting up exposure and DOF, shooting without an aperture ring lens - to me - is kind of infuriating.

 

[sleroux]

Thank you Michael for your detailed explanations!

Things were a little bit confuse in my head as I didn't understand it was about changing the aperture in live viewing, not live recording.
I think I get your point, as I use myself a lot the depth of field preview test button for still photographies.


As I have now made my choice for a D5300, I think I have to look for lens with manual aperture ring. That was my intension anyway ... mostly because they were more affordable :/ Too bad for the AF, but I could probably live without it.

 

[Michael Carter]

You wouldn't use AF for video anyway. I do use it on steadicams or cranes to set a static focus point without having to touch the lens - AF doesn't change beyond the first half-press on most Nikons doing video.

Keep in mind, using live view for video, the DOF preview button doesn't matter, the lens stops down once you go to live view.

I'd say a great 1st lens would be the 28mm AIS - equates to a fairly normal lens on the APS-C sensor. That's about $250 used and it's a classic, about the lowest distortion ever achieved in a wide lens.

For a tight budget, the Series-E Nikkor 28mm is around $100 (sometimes less) and is really not a bad lens at F4 or so. I shot many projects with one.

Vivitar made a 28mm 3.5 manual lens that shows up often... pretty soft, even compared to the Series E (tested with focus charts, not hearsay).

Any version of the 50mm 1.8 is a damn good lens and there's decades of 'em to choose from, from AIS to AF era it's the same formula, but it's a 70mm look on the small sensor. Want to find one really cheap? Look at old Nikon film bodies on eBay, often you get the 50 on an old body for like $25. And old film cameras are pretty cool.

The 100mm 2.8 Series E is a STEAL at around $100. it's not as great as the pricey 105, but a hundred bucks? It's pretty gorgeous and really nice wide open, sharpens at F4 or so but lovely at 2.8. Long tele on APS-C, but a gorgeous lens for beauty and rack focusing stuff.

The 35-70 2.8 AF zoom is a love-it-hate-it lens. Sometimes it's just gorgeous, but the slightest flare and it flattens out exactly like LOG footage; even a high-key scene can wash it out... you need a great hood or an adjustable matte box. Funny thing is, it really sorta works like log footage in grading and you can control it with the top flag of a matte box, crazy. $199 - $350 on eBay. Get a $10 collapsible rubber hood so you can really block it. HEAVY all-metal pro-grade lens.

 

[Michael Carter]

Here's ungraded 5300 footage from last weekend - all the steadicam stuff was the D5300 at 60p (I know, I'm a s*%t steadicam op). The cranes & closeups are the D7100 at 30p, everything conformed to 24p.

Glass on the 5300 was the 12-28 Tokina F4 (badass lens). On the 7100 mostly the 28-70 2.8, with some 85 1.8 (you can really tell that shot is the 85, luscious lens). Last shot is the 80-200 2.8.

 

[sleroux]

Here's ungraded 5300 footage from last weekend [...]

Yeah, I saw that video on an other thread. And probably have watched it dozens of times, trying to guess how and using which supporting gear it was shot!

For a tight budget, the Series-E Nikkor 28mm [...] is really not a bad lens at F4

Serie E lens are not easy to find here in France: with shipping rates and taxes, the bill easily rises. Anyway, I've managed to find one Nikon Series E 28mm 2.8 for something just below 130€ (incl. VAT and custom clearance charges). Probably not the best deal in the world, anyway it can't be worst than the kit zoom 18-55VR 3.5-5.6 (or can it?)

 

[Michael Carter]

Thanks, the graded version is looking cool - doing it with that washed out magenta "old film" sort of color with a dose of diffusion... but I can't bear to wash out the shadows, so it's kinda strange. Still have another half shoot day and some night shots before a final edit.

We had a BLAST that day, drove all over east texas, derelict towns, etc. The singer and a stylist (they're kinda sisters to me) and a truck full of gear. We had, umm, adventures, met some crazies out there. Told anyone we were shooting a christian video. Really bizarre, how many small TX towns have absolutely deserted "downtowns".

The 60p stuff was with a Came steadicam. I flipped it for some low mode shots, just slid the gimbal down and went for it. Lots of focus issues with the steadicam, full sun and no monitor attached - I'm gonna find some way to mount an HDMI viewfinder to a night vision headband. Couple shots with an 8' kessler crane, many were the D7100 shoulder mounted with a loupe and the massive 28-70 lens (all those flares are in-camera). Couple tripod shots. That crane has pretty much trashed my Manfrotto head though. I had everything sort of half-assembled and well organized - I think from opening the hatchback to rolling with a crane shot, my record was like 7 minutes!

The kit zoom... it's been tested by many who found it remarkably good for the $$. If I'm remembering mine correctly, it was a pain to manually focus or get a gear on. And kind of limited control of DOF. I think I got an older version with a D90 or something and sold it with my D80, not sure how the current version stacks up. Really hated the Canon kit lens, tiny focus ring that was loose with zero feel. I'd try to hunt down a pre-AF zoom from Tamron or something.

Keep in mind that testing a lens with stills is a different world than video - sharpness losses with video compression and rescaling can really make a so-so lens very close to a pricey pro lens. There's a LOT of 70-200 and 35-70 range manual zooms out there.

You might check KEH.com and see how international sales work with them. Some prices a little higher than eBay, but if they say it's in good shape, it will BE in good shape. Great resource.

 

[sleroux]

We had a BLAST that day, drove all over east texas, derelict towns, etc. The singer and a stylist (they're kinda sisters to me) and a truck full of gear. We had, umm, adventures, met some crazies out there. Told anyone we were shooting a christian video. Really bizarre, how many small TX towns have absolutely deserted "downtowns".

We surely have our share of odd places and people here in France. Yet, from here, those stories of small towns in the middle of nowhere with their "welcoming" inhabitants always have a so unique "US style". You definitely are lucky to live in such a varied environment!

The 60p stuff was with a Came steadicam. I flipped it for some low mode shots, just slid the gimbal down and went for it. Lots of focus issues with the steadicam, full sun and no monitor attached - I'm gonna find some way to mount an HDMI viewfinder to a night vision headband. Couple shots with an 8' kessler crane, many were the D7100 shoulder mounted with a loupe and the massive 28-70 lens (all those flares are in-camera). Couple tripod shots. That crane has pretty much trashed my Manfrotto head though. I had everything sort of half-assembled and well organized - I think from opening the hatchback to rolling with a crane shot, my record was like 7 minutes!

Very impressive and very professional setup! Speaking for myself, I think the role and importance of supporting gears are well underestimated when you plan to shoot your first video. For still photography I have tripods and heads that easily survived three generations of camera, and I use them all the time! Nevertheless, I hasn't refrained to hope that with "optical stabilization" and "vibration reduction", hand-held shoot would be more than decent

That being said, I'm aiming much more simpler work than you. Anyway, a fluid head is probably the bare minimum. And I don't know yet how to deal with closeups nor scenes where I will have to follow the "talent"...

The kit zoom... it's been tested by many who found it remarkably good for the $$. If I'm remembering mine correctly, it was a pain to manually focus or get a gear on. And kind of limited control of DOF. I think I got an older version with a D90 or something and sold it with my D80, not sure how the current version stacks up. Really hated the Canon kit lens, tiny focus ring that was loose with zero feel. I'd try to hunt down a pre-AF zoom from Tamron or something.are lucky to live in

Keep in mind that testing a lens with stills is a different world than video - sharpness losses with video compression and rescaling can really make a so-so lens very close to a pricey pro lens. There's a LOT of 70-200 and 35-70 range manual zooms out there.

I put my hand on a D5300 with the 18-55 kit lens. Not bad at all. The focus ring is not too soft, even if I must admit I'm not a big fan of the "all plastic" design. The image is rather good for that kind of lens, but the maximum aperture of F3.5-5.6 is rather low I think. Even if I'm not sure this is as important for video than for still?

As you said, I notice that for video lens sharpness is not much a premium. And many shoot with a zoom (kind of "love-hate" thing if I understand -- as zoom have more flare than prime lens). Anyway, zoom or prime lens, I think I would stick with manual aperture lens for the reason you explained before. One good thing I discovered recently: the D5300 would probably accept pre-AI lens too. That's an opportunity to find good (very) old lens at a correct price, as pre-AI won't work without conversion on most of the other Nikon DSLR.

You might check KEH.com and see how international sales work with them. Some prices a little higher than eBay, but if they say it's in good shape, it will BE in good shape. Great resource.

In fact, keh has an e-bay store too. Less constraining for international orders (you don't have your credit card or delivery address to be "approved", you could pay using PayPal). There is definitively a much larger market for second hand Nikon lens than for Minolta ones! Finally, switching from Sony/Minolta to Nikon would not be that expensive ... saving money for audio and supporting gears!


Thank you again for all your advices!

 

[Michael Carter]

If money's tight and you're looking for your first video tripod, check Amazon or elsewhere for the "fancier" video tripod. I got one for my son when he went to film school, and after I played with it got one for myself. For $140, it's really a stunning deal. It has a nice feel. It's got some cheap parts and you'd want to baby it, but it's pretty amazing for the money.