Sony 4k Recorder VS. Odyssey 7Q

[Gene Sung]

Dear Friends,

Our Odyssey7Q is certainly capable of Recording 4K Raw, we just need Sony's permission in order to provide this feature.

On the other hand, recording in 4K to a compressed codec does have certain advantages.

The main one is that the file sizes are so much smaller, thus allowing many more to start recording 4K (compared to recording 4K Raw).

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

@ Dan. Hack it! Become the Heisenberg of the FS700. Just joking (or actually half joking...) hehe...

 

[SergeSmArt]

Dear Friends,

Our Odyssey7Q is certainly capable of Recording 4K Raw, we just need Sony's permission in order to provide this feature.

On the other hand, recording in 4K to a compressed codec does have certain advantages.

The main one is that the file sizes are so much smaller, thus allowing many more to start recording 4K (compared to recording 4K Raw).

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

Hi, Dan ! We all know, that Sony don't give you "permission".. "until cows come home" ... :grin: .... if they do - WHAT reason we gonna have to waste $12.000+ to "Sony RAW SET" ?? :2vrolijk_08:

 

[True North]

Hey True North, here's been my experience in the industry as an upstart DP with the FS700 in LA. I've been lucky to work with a legit and established production company that often mixes live action with animation (I started off as a designer there). They have been using me + FS700 to DP their lower budget jobs (sub $50K), mostly main titles and promos for cable networks like Disney, HGTV, Discovery and SYFY. When the budget is low-ish, I usually get the job and I'm very thankful. When they have a bigger budget, they usually use a RED since there's usually the compositing element.

I think when the 7Q steps up a bit with 4K and 10 bit, they might step me up to the low-ish mid-range jobs. I pretty certain the higher budget jobs will still be the domain of the Epic (especially when Dragon becomes available). Also, producers on the client end usually don't know much, but when you say RED, they automatically assume it's the "Best." In fact, I think many of them are convinced that the 5Ds are better than the FS700, F5 and F55 (which they know little about).

Canon and RED do a great job marketing their products, which makes it hard for Sony operators because Producers are all about Buzz words like RED, Canon and Alexa, even if they know nothing about it.

I'm thinking if I want to get the high end DP jobs, I have to learn RED or Alexa since those are the staples. Maybe the F55 will penetrate soon, but not certain about that. The FS700 will always remain a lower end camera (maybe mid-range) because of client perception. With that said, there are plenty of lower end jobs going around in LA where you get paid pretty damn well.

On another note, the production people I work with are convinced that the FS700 + 7Q is a much more capable camera than any Canon camera, so at least that's a start in Sony's favor.

Thanks for the overview Gene - very helpful and interesting insights

When you get your 7Q, will your production company be asking you for 4K content?

 

[Gene Sung]

Thanks for the overview Gene - very helpful and interesting insights

When you get your 7Q, will your production company be asking you for 4K content?

100% certain they will. They wish the 7Q was out now. They love 4K because they do a lot of compositing and graphics over footage. But yeah, I have no delusions that the FS700 + 7Q will ever be as requested as an Epic or Alexa. IMO, it will always be the lower-tier to mid-tier camera; but hey, it's been a fantastic camera and will only get better. And plus, it helped me break in. It's no surprise, but the camera your own really can help you get jobs. The FS700 helped me a lot over the DSLR shooters. If I did own an Epic, I would certainly be getting more jobs just because of the camera. No matter how good your reel is, directors and producers love fancy sound gear, buzz words like "Red" and "Arri."

 

[Simon Shasha]

I just have a few novice questions as I've been out of the FS700/7Q loop for quite some time

The 7Q records to a 4K compressed 10-bit codec - when doing so, will it do it in S-Log2, and hence, give a very flat image, albeit a non-RAW one?

The 4K compressed 10-bit codec - is it ProRes? DNxHD? Something else?

The 2K RAW from the 7Q, is it confirmed that it will suffer from heavy aliasing, or is that speculation? If it does suffer from aliasing and such, could this be corrected by future firmware, i.e. perhaps by utilising a different debayering algorithm?

What is the maximum frame-rate for the 7Q when shooting 4K compressed 10-bit?

Is it possible to record with a 2K compressed 10-bit codec on the 7Q? If so, what is the maximum frame-rate? And does it suffer from the aliasing said to exist in the 2K RAW?

Finally, is there a shipping date for the 7Q?

I would love if anyone can help with these questions

Thanks for your times, guys, much appreciated

 

[Barry_Green]

The 4K compressed 10-bit codec - is it ProRes? DNxHD? Something else?

DNxHD right now. Suspected that it will add ProRes when licensing is complete, but that is speculation; they have only said that they are working on another "popular codec".

The 2K RAW from the 7Q, is it confirmed that it will suffer from heavy aliasing, or is that speculation?

It has nothing to do with the Odyssey; in raw it records what the camera gives it. And the camera output from the FS700 is heavily aliased in 2K. If Sony changes the firmware such that it outputs a windowed 2K instead of full-sensor 2K, then the aliasing will disappear. So that's a Sony question, not an Odyssey question. There's nothing Convergent Designs can do about it.

Is it possible to record with a 2K compressed 10-bit codec on the 7Q? If so, what is the maximum frame-rate? And does it suffer from the aliasing said to exist in the 2K RAW?

I don't have a definitive answer here, but it is my understanding that yes, they intend to make the 7Q able to record 2K (and 1080P) 10-bit compressed in DNxHD and "popular codec", and that it would be coming from the 4K raw source, not from the aliased 2K output. As such, the compressed 2K video recording should look much better than the 2K raw would. I haven't kept up on the details though (to me, details are irrelevant until the product actually ships) so -- someone else will have to answer as to whether they've confirmed that they will definitely be doing this, and whether it'll be implemented at launch or later, etc.

 

[SergeSmArt]

Serge,
is that a Manfrotto 504HD you are using? If so, it's a little overloaded, isn't it? I have a Sachtler FSB6 which accepts more weight but is getting to the limit with the camera +movcam cage +Alphatron +Blade recorder.

Hi, Clermond! Sorry, I was not able to answer you till now... because I was not able to find out weight of my stuff and was looking for right Head and Tripod .. Today I did it :

.. so.. at first I was looking for option to use FS-700 on $215 Mini-Jib with 5KG max load capacity :grin:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DY8CFBM

( Darren Levine make review about it here: https://vimeo.com/channels/indiejunkie )
..and it's funny to see that seems possible to use this Jib with my setup #4 - as it's about 3.1KG, not 5 ... I have 12/8 Kessler Crane/Jib with K-Pod, but it's big and sometime I would prefer to have something very small on location

.... and second I was trying to find out about my Tripod RIG if I want to have and use "Sony RAW SET" on RIG mount (!!!) and that was FUNNY to see that Manfrotto made 546Tripod ( with 75mm Ball size option ) and 44lb/20kg Load Capacity, but DO NOT MADE any Head with the same 75mm Ball size with able to work with it to fill up that Load maximum! ..
As you can see in my table I find out that any RIG with FS-700 without "Sony RAW SET" will be fine with My combination of 546Tripod and 504 head, but, if I want to have "Sony RAW SET" and place it ON RIG - than I have to invest another $821 to Libec RH35R head! .. because this is only head I found which able to hold 20lb/9kg and have the same 75mm ball size,... and My MAXIMUM RIG with this head weight will be 25.9lb together, so they should work fine on my Manfrotto 546 Tripod ...

What do you think about this calculation ? .. and about this Libec RH35R head ?? --> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/861098-REG/Libec_RH35R_Pan_and_Tilt.html

.. Keep in mind, that I DO NOT HAVE "Sony RAW SET" ... yet .. so If I'm gonna waste another $12.150.00 for it I will be NOT able to find EXTRA $3-5K on better TRIPOD .... :grin: , and at minimum I have to pay extra $821 for Libec head .. or keep "Sony RAW SET" under tripod.. on the ground probably ...:grin:

 

[Simon Shasha]

DNxHD right now. Suspected that it will add ProRes when licensing is complete, but that is speculation; they have only said that they are working on another "popular codec".

It has nothing to do with the Odyssey; in raw it records what the camera gives it. And the camera output from the FS700 is heavily aliased in 2K. If Sony changes the firmware such that it outputs a windowed 2K instead of full-sensor 2K, then the aliasing will disappear. So that's a Sony question, not an Odyssey question. There's nothing Convergent Designs can do about it.

I don't have a definitive answer here, but it is my understanding that yes, they intend to make the 7Q able to record 2K (and 1080P) 10-bit compressed in DNxHD and "popular codec", and that it would be coming from the 4K raw source, not from the aliased 2K output. As such, the compressed 2K video recording should look much better than the 2K raw would. I haven't kept up on the details though (to me, details are irrelevant until the product actually ships) so -- someone else will have to answer as to whether they've confirmed that they will definitely be doing this, and whether it'll be implemented at launch or later, etc.

Hey Barry,

Thank you so much for sharing that information It's a lot to take in!

When do you think we will see more footage from the 7Q + FS700? I'd really love to take a closer look with what it can really do for the FS700...soon I hope!

 

[paulcurtis]

I just have a few novice questions as I've been out of the FS700/7Q loop for quite some time
The 7Q records to a 4K compressed 10-bit codec - when doing so, will it do it in S-Log2, and hence, give a very flat image, albeit a non-RAW one?
The 4K compressed 10-bit codec - is it ProRes? DNxHD? Something else?

Just to add to Barrys repsonse.

The sample file from CD was actually a 4K ProRes file, so i suspect we can draw our conclusions that way.
The sample is not log, but Dan has said it would be log.

I
Is it possible to record with a 2K compressed 10-bit codec on the 7Q? If so, what is the maximum frame-rate? And does it suffer from the aliasing said to exist in the 2K RAW?

Dan said that this will happen in a future version of the firmware. The maximum rate would be whatever the maximum 4K rate would be. And that's not known yet, it could be anywhere up to 60fps.

There's also the chance that the Q7 will be able to record the 4K burst mode from the camera, which would give 120fps for a few seconds. In order for the recorder to do this it will need to record at 60fps, so if the answer to the above is 60, then capturing higher bursts should also be possible.

Neither of the above have been promised though. Just hoped!

cheers
Paul