Sony 4k Recorder VS. Odyssey 7Q

[dapoopta]

I know it is early to tell what the Odyssey is capable of and there isn't much 4k stuff out there from the R5 yet, BUT, if we were just talking picture quality, which recorder do you think will give you better results?

 

[Barry_Green]

If the purpose is to get raw, then no question - the Sony recorder. The Odyssey is not allowed to record 4K raw, by the licensing agreement, so the only raw you can get with the Odyssey is the 2K, and that's a compromised aliased image coming off the Sony sensor.

The Odyssey should be able to provide superb 4K video (not raw, but compressed video) and scaled 2K and 1080p, so those should all be great... but if what you want is 4K RAW, then the Sony recorder is the only choice.

 

[dapoopta]

after adding up all the items needed for the R5 it comes to about $10,000. A little more than I think I want to spend . I also cannot find the battery supply shown in most of the pictures that attaches to the back of the recorder, any ideas?
http://www.hollywoodcamera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/axsr5-02.jpg

 

[HD Gear Guru]

The battery supply you see attached is the new Sony Olivine Battery. If your not sure of this battery, are located in the US and would like to see / test the battery, PM me and maybe I can assist you.

Kind regards,

 

[SergeSmArt]

Cost of "Sony 4K RAW SET" vs "Odyssey Set"

Cost of "Sony 4K RAW SET" vs "Odyssey Set"

after adding up all the items needed for the R5 it comes to about $10,000. A little more than I think I want to spend . I also cannot find the battery supply shown in most of the pictures that attaches to the back of the recorder, any ideas?
http://www.hollywoodcamera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/axsr5-02.jpg

Actually $10K is a minimum.. in reality you will need $12,150

My FS-700 with "Sony 4K RAW SET" ->

You DON'T need to use Sony "Olivine" battery.. any V-lock battery works well! -->

...and If you want to get some RAW originals, you get get it here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-RAW-samples-from-FS-700-and-Sony-R5-Recorder

later I will upload even MORE samples for you to play with

-----------------------------
Cost of "Sony 4KRAW SET" -->

HXR-IFR5 interface unit $2200
AXR-R5 RAW Recorder $5350
AXS-512S24 Memory Card $1800
AXS-CR1 card reader $550
V-Lock battery $250
============================
Total: $10,150 (with one card) / $12,150 ( with two cards)

===================================
Cost of "Odyssey 4K /2KRAW SET" -->
Convergent Design Odyssey7Q RAW Monitor & Recorder $2295
Convergent Design 512GB 2.5" Solid State Drive $795
Sony FS-700 RAW option - $795
V-Lock battery $250
External Enclosure w USB-2 and E-SATA $33
------------------------------
Total: $4963 ( with 2 x 512GB SSD )

So?

 

[Clermond]

400$ 4K Firmware Update

First of all: thanks again Serge for supplying all these files! My plan is to rent the 4K Sony RAW Set if a client wants and is willing to pay for 4K RAW. For all other cases the 7Q will be more than fine. (Up to now it's fine with the Blade too!)

 

[SergeSmArt]

400$ 4K Firmware Update

First of all: thanks again Serge for supplying all these files! My plan is to rent the 4K Sony RAW Set if a client wants and is willing to pay for 4K RAW. For all other cases the 7Q will be more than fine. (Up to now it's fine with the Blade too!)

This is exactly what I'm planing to do!! - to RENT "4K Sony RAW Set" only when "a client wants and is willing to pay for 4K RAW" !!! ... but I think, for "all other cases" FS-700 will be fine even WITHOUT $4963 Odyssey 7Q !!! rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

 

[Clermond]

Serge,
is that a Manfrotto 504HD you are using? If so, it's a little overloaded, isn't it? I have a Sachtler FSB6 which accepts more weight but is getting to the limit with the camera +movcam cage +Alphatron +Blade recorder.

 

[True North]

This is exactly what I'm planing to do!! - to RENT "4K Sony RAW Set" only when "a client wants and is willing to pay for 4K RAW" !!! ... but I think, for "all other cases" FS-700 will be fine even WITHOUT $4963 Odyssey 7Q !!! rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

This is what has me very curious. When the Odyssey 7Q was first introduced I thought it was over priced for most FS700 Users. My reasoning was that none of the clients of the average FS700 owner would require or demand 4K. I can see there being a demand for 4K in major film releases but then you are talking a whole other budget and equipment requirement.

Now when Odyssey prices started to come down and they introduced the ability to eventually shoot in a 'Popular Codec" in 10 bit 4:2:2 it started to make more sense. With my albeit limited knowledge I reasoned that there is a demand for boradcast standard codecs and it was therefore reasonable that an FS700/Odyssey owner could eventually gain new business and make back their investment.

So Serge my question to you is, did you plan on making back the money on your R5 investment? If so, then where is there demand for 4K. I came up with a few scenarios where Wedding Videographers might be able to upsell the whole 4K concept...(i.e. capturing the most important day of their lives in a resolution and format that can be viewed forever....etc.) but I can't really think of any other scenarios in the low to midrange market where people would demand 4K. I am asking purely out of curiosity. Regardless of your answer, you have built an awesome rig, thanks for sharing with us, cheers!

 

[Colinelves]

True north: what the client wants and what the client needs are two separate things (and what the client can afford is a third!).

Plenty of mid-low range clients would love/demand people shoot on C300 (a 'broadcast' camera) or even Red (accepting MX or Scarlet) because "it's the best" even though the film will only be shown on their website, projects where an AVCHD Camera or a Canon 5D would be perfectly fine. There's a certain cache involved in shooting on these cameras (and to a certain extent the end result might be slightly better if you have the right people working with them).

As a consequence certain clients are prepared to pay more for a service (provision of a camera) if it means they get the 'better' camera. The same will be true of the R5 rig. Some clients will understand that 4K Raw is 'better' because that's what a Red does!!! (note the three exclamation marks) and be even happier that they can get that extra quality for less than the cost of a Red package. They won't care how, they'll just be happy to get something they don't really understand for less than they're used to.

Furthermore, if you're intending to get a lot of work shooting low-budget drama (shorts, features etc) the 4K Raw will increasingly be a requirement (despite the fact that an Alexa is 'only' 2K) because, as we all know, 4K Raw is what makes something 'cinema quality' (please read that proceeding sentence as being coated with a thick layer of sarcasm) -

However, because low budget drama is exceedingly price sensitive, they'll be happy to accept FS700 12bit 4K Raw if it comes in significantly cheaper than Red 4K Raw (or F5 Raw) - which an FS700/R5 rig will.

Which is all to say: The demand for 4K will come irregardless of whether or not the project will benefit from 4K, because clients fall in love with the number. And the same is true for 4K Raw vs 4K compressed from the O7Q.

Being able to pay for it then, depends very much upon your client base. Although I obviously can't speak for Serge on this one! Personally, for my clients I can see them willing to pay for the extra cost of an O7Q (once the word has got out there), but probably not for an R5 (although I'll be happy to hire one when they do!)

Only yesterday I saw an advert that required the DP to provide a C300, with an F5, Fs700 (or even a Red!) sic. as 'acceptable' alternatives (no DSLR!). Given time you'll start to see ones that require the DP to provide a Red, but accepting an F5 or FS700 with 4K recorder.

Colin.

p.s. I really hope this doesn't sound like a dig at you True North, as it really isn't!

 

[True North]

True north: what the client wants and what the client needs are two separate things (and what the client can afford is a third!).

Agreed

Plenty of mid-low range clients would love/demand people shoot on C300 (a 'broadcast' camera) or even Red (accepting MX or Scarlet) because "it's the best" even though the film will only be shown on their website, projects where an AVCHD Camera or a Canon 5D would be perfectly fine. There's a certain cache involved in shooting on these cameras (and to a certain extent the end result might be slightly better if you have the right people working with them).

Here is the thing - I agree that people will want brand names but I don't necessarily think they are doing so, so they can shoot 4K Raw. The only business reason, to my mind, for spending the extra money and getting the R5 Recorder is because the person buying it thinks he/she will get enough 4K Raw specific work to recoup their investment and turn a profit off of their investment. In other words, the buyer of the R5 is receiving income for work that he/she wouldn't have received if they didn't buy the recorder.

Maybe this isn't Serge's goal, maybe the purchase is born solely out of personal interest in shooting 4K raw. Regardless, I am interested in hearing anyone's opinion on how they would or have economically justified the purchase of an R5 with their FS700. I am just trying to educate myself as perhaps I don't understand or see the opportunities that others see or experience.

As a consequence certain clients are prepared to pay more for a service (provision of a camera) if it means they get the 'better' camera. The same will be true of the R5 rig. Some clients will understand that 4K Raw is 'better' because that's what a Red does!!! (note the three exclamation marks) and be even happier that they can get that extra quality for less than the cost of a Red package. They won't care how, they'll just be happy to get something they don't really understand for less than they're used to.

I agree to a certain extent. At this point in time, I think that people will pay extra for a Red or an Arri but not because of the resolution of that specific camera. I doubt people are paying more for a Red operator and camera so they can shoot in 4K raw. They are paying for a Red operator because its a Red and it's an accepted 'Pro' option. I think it's a very huge leap to think that people are going to somehow throw in an FS700 in with the Reds and Arri's of the world just because of an external recorder like the R5. The F5 and F55 for instance don't seem to be anywhere near as popular as Red or an Arri despite both being very solid cameras.

Furthermore, if you're intending to get a lot of work shooting low-budget drama (shorts, features etc) the 4K Raw will increasingly be a requirement (despite the fact that an Alexa is 'only' 2K) because, as we all know, 4K Raw is what makes something 'cinema quality' (please read that proceeding sentence as being coated with a thick layer of sarcasm) -

However, because low budget drama is exceedingly price sensitive, they'll be happy to accept FS700 12bit 4K Raw if it comes in significantly cheaper than Red 4K Raw (or F5 Raw) - which an FS700/R5 rig will.

Which is all to say: The demand for 4K will come irregardless of whether or not the project will benefit from 4K, because clients fall in love with the number. And the same is true for 4K Raw vs 4K compressed from the O7Q.

There was a great link to an article that I believe I came across on this board that outlined the true costs of shooting in 4K raw. The costs are of course well over and above just the cost of the Camera rental. The costs in memory storage, post etc...made shooting in 4K Raw very impractical for low to mid budget work. I tend to agree that 4K will eventually become the norm but I really don't know who quickly that will come and nor does anyone else. I personally think we are looking at a few years (3 to 5) before 4K becomes 'the norm'. Memory prices need to come down, imaging and computing power needs to increase and there needs to be enough content to make it worthwhile. Sony's commitment to drving 4K will help but I think it's premature.

Being able to pay for it then, depends very much upon your client base. Although I obviously can't speak for Serge on this one! Personally, for my clients I can see them willing to pay for the extra cost of an O7Q (once the word has got out there), but probably not for an R5 (although I'll be happy to hire one when they do!)

I know it depends on the client base but my question is more specific than that. For those shooting on an FS700 as their A camera, what specific type of clients are asking for 4K Raw? Having clients asking and willing to pay extra for 4K Raw would be, to my mind, the only reason to buy an R5 rig in the first place (other than personal interest).

Furthermore, my suspicion is that any client truly requiring and having the budget for 4K Raw, more than likely wouldn't be asking or accepting FS700's as the main camera.

Only yesterday I saw an advert that required the DP to provide a C300, with an F5, Fs700 (or even a Red!) sic. as 'acceptable' alternatives (no DSLR!). Given time you'll start to see ones that require the DP to provide a Red, but accepting an F5 or FS700 with 4K recorder.

Colin.

p.s. I really hope this doesn't sound like a dig at you True North, as it really isn't!

I definitely didn't take your post as a dig and I thank you for taking the time to reply.

As I said above, I just don't think that it can be taken as a given that the FS700 will start to be lumped in with the C300's and Red's of the world. I certainly woulnd't object if it happened but I think it is a premature assumption to make. I happen to think that FS700 with one of the two current external recorder options easily contends with a C300 and potentially outperforms it feature wise.

In the end I am just curious as to specifically what type of client is willing to ask an FS700 user for 4K Raw and most importantly, pay for 4K Raw content? I ask because to my mind I just can't see it happening enough to warrant an investment in an R5 rig. Maybe it's due to my limited knowledge, but all I am trying to do is educate myself here. I would love to hear other people's experience on this.

 

[Gene Sung]

I think with the 7Q recorder, the FS700 will step up another category. I know it will never supersede the Epic, but it will definitely compete with the Scarlet; and in most ways over take it. The Director I work with was about to buy a Scarlet, then he did some research and is going to get the FS700 + 7Q which is a better choice IMO unless you only want 4K RAW.

As for the C300, Canon markets that camera so well that it will probably continue to sell more and be more requested than the FS700 despite the fact that the FS700 with 7Q will be a superior camera IMO (S-Log = close to 2 stops more DR, 10 bit 4:2:2, HFR, etc).... Sony really should take a marketing page from Canon because they do a much better job with marketing, than their actual intentionally crippled cameras.

I think for the money on R5 + Interface unit on the FS700, you might as well buy an F5. Conspiracy theory: I think Sony intentionally set it up that way so the R5 on the FS700 would fail to protect the F5.

 

[True North]

Hey Gene - I definitely think that an FS700 + 7Q moves the Camera into another category. Whether it will be perceived that way is another story but anything is possible. Seems to be a couple of examples of it happening already, both you and Colin gave an example each. The C300 still gives you a much smaller form factor to work with and doesen't require an external recorder but you are also going to spend more money to do it. On the other hand I think the FS700 + 7Q is an amazing value that easily gives you more bang for the buck over a C300.

I see where your going with the F5 vs FS700+R5 logic but don't forget you still need to buy the R5 in addition to the F5 to capture 4K raw. From strictly a dollars perspective, you will be spending A LOT more to get 4K raw out of an F5 vs an FS700.

But my question still remains. From purely a business perspective, what types of clients are going to not only request 4K raw but also pay for it as well. From my limited knowledge I just don't know that those types of clients exist at the moment. My hunch is that the people who genuinely need 4K raw and are willing to pay for it are not going to be calling on FS700 operators. Once again I admit I don't have a deep knowledge of the industry so I am looking to anyone to point out some of the potential clients who would be willing to pay extra $ for a 4K Raw shoot using an FS700 + R5.

 

[SergeSmArt]

I think for the money on R5 + Interface unit on the FS700, you might as well buy an F5. Conspiracy theory: I think Sony intentionally set it up that way so the R5 on the FS700 would fail to protect the F5.

LOL... rogar-Happy(DBG):.. seems like no one read carefully what I say!! --> " This is exactly what I'm planing to do!! - to RENT "4K Sony RAW Set" only when "a client wants and is willing to pay for 4K RAW" !!! "

.. you will laughing if I told you WHO actually order and pay for this FS-700 camera, a FEW LENSES and "Sony RAW recorder SET" :cheesy: ...

and this is exactly "a personal interest in shooting 4K raw" from my side !

I just very happy to get this order and option to filming with this setup for the period of time ! ..

..and I tell you - IF I have any chance to buy it - I will do it immediately !!! Take a look to this:

This test was taken in S-log-2 mode.. with "expose to the right" level of exposure and "wrong" White Balance ... and you can see HOW HUGE latitude FS-700 have in 12-bit 4K RAW !!!
This screenshot of Sony RAW Viewer taken after I make some very simple correction in exposure, color, contrast and tint.. and "Split" option give me a chance to show you the difference between "Before" and "After" view
.. I don't know about someone else, but I cannot imagine so much correction if you have 4K ProRes original...

and I'm talking NOT about "primitive correction of shooting mistakes" !!!.. but about HUGE potential in GRADING we have!!!
( seems like many people do not understand it yet... but I see - FS-700 is really better than RED Scarlet !!! )

About "To Buy or Non To Buy?" question: I just want to shoot a DRAMA.. ( or Comedy ) I mean - shoot something "big".. something like "Real Movie" even it is just a 30-minutes film..
... as I'm "tired to death" of shooting "Music Videos" in NYC.. :cheesy: .. ...and unfortunately I'm too old to be sure that I have a chance to shoot a real film .. but I still hope to do so ...

 

[SergeSmArt]

so I am looking to anyone to point out some of the potential clients who would be willing to pay extra $ for a 4K Raw shoot using an FS700 + R5.

I think we MUST to create that kind of "Clients" !! ... and the only way to do it is - to SHOOT samples of something really GOOD, something serious !!!...
Probably RED do NOT start from huge orders from Hollywood ? ... and Alexa also start from something simple, like documentary, or something ? ..
As far as I know - Sony F65 camera are ready taken for a few Hollywood films, and when there will be more films - there will be more orders for it ..
sorry about my English, but I hope you can see WHAT I mean? .. as an Artist I always believe that only a good samples of "brilliant ideas" and perfect realization of them make people to like the result

 

[True North]

answered as I was writing

 

[SergeSmArt]

answered as I was writing

..so.. ? what do you think ?

 

[True North]

I think we MUST to create that kind of "Clients" !! ... and the only way to do it is - to SHOOT samples of something really GOOD, something serious !!!...
Probably RED do NOT start from huge orders from Hollywood ? ... and Alexa also start from something simple, like documentary, or something ? ..
As far as I know - Sony F65 camera are ready taken for a few Hollywood films, and when there will be more films - there will be more orders for it ..
sorry about my English, but I hope you can see WHAT I mean? .. as an Artist I always believe that only a good samples of "brilliant ideas" and perfect realization of them make people to like the result

I see exactly what you mean. If I remember correctly I believe RED had some reasonably big name early adopters, Peter Jackson being one of them. Arri of course distinguished itself in the camera world A LONG time ago. The challenge is that I believe we are at or near the upper limit of what people can discern in terms of resolution. Blu Ray quality on a good high rdef monitor or projector produces an amazingly detailed image. Sometimes too detailed. I remember watching a couple of high budget films when Blu-Ray first came out and you could see the make up on the actors and you could tell when certain scenes were shot on a set....not good. I still believe that 4K will eventually become the new standard I just don't know that we will see much more in terms of resolution come into play after 4K (i.e 6K, 8K). I also believe that technology is still a few steps behind in terms of fully accommodating 4K.

It sort of reminds me of what happened to audio quality in the music industry. The vast majority of all music being played today is off of a compressed format (MP3) and listened to on headphones or ear buds. At some point the definition of the music reached a point where people didn't need to listen to music at higher sample rates or uncompressed formats. Convenience became more important. You can even see it seep into the movie industry with many people renting movies off of Netflix at SD. The definition is good enough for many and people prefer the convenience of just being able to download the movie quickly to their TV's.

I am not saying that as an artist we should stop doing what we love and seek out better technologies that allows us to achieve our visions I am just saying that the pay-off beyond personal satisfaction may not be as significant to many consumers.

Serge, I hope you achieve your goals for creating something 'BIG" and thanks for sharing your work with us on this site.

 

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Friends,

Our Odyssey7Q is certainly capable of Recording 4K Raw, we just need Sony's permission in order to provide this feature.

On the other hand, recording in 4K to a compressed codec does have certain advantages.

The main one is that the file sizes are so much smaller, thus allowing many more to start recording 4K (compared to recording 4K Raw).

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Gene Sung]

But my question still remains. From purely a business perspective, what types of clients are going to not only request 4K raw but also pay for it as well. From my limited knowledge I just don't know that those types of clients exist at the moment. My hunch is that the people who genuinely need 4K raw and are willing to pay for it are not going to be calling on FS700 operators. Once again I admit I don't have a deep knowledge of the industry so I am looking to anyone to point out some of the potential clients who would be willing to pay extra $ for a 4K Raw shoot using an FS700 + R5.

Hey True North, here's been my experience in the industry as an upstart DP with the FS700 in LA. I've been lucky to work with a legit and established production company that often mixes live action with animation (I started off as a designer there). They have been using me + FS700 to DP their lower budget jobs (sub $50K), mostly main titles and promos for cable networks like Disney, HGTV, Discovery and SYFY. When the budget is low-ish, I usually get the job and I'm very thankful. When they have a bigger budget, they usually use a RED since there's usually the compositing element.

I think when the 7Q steps up a bit with 4K and 10 bit, they might step me up to the low-ish mid-range jobs. I pretty certain the higher budget jobs will still be the domain of the Epic (especially when Dragon becomes available). Also, producers on the client end usually don't know much, but when you say RED, they automatically assume it's the "Best." In fact, I think many of them are convinced that the 5Ds are better than the FS700, F5 and F55 (which they know little about).

Canon and RED do a great job marketing their products, which makes it hard for Sony operators because Producers are all about Buzz words like RED, Canon and Alexa, even if they know nothing about it.

I'm thinking if I want to get the high end DP jobs, I have to learn RED or Alexa since those are the staples. Maybe the F55 will penetrate soon, but not certain about that. The FS700 will always remain a lower end camera (maybe mid-range) because of client perception. With that said, there are plenty of lower end jobs going around in LA where you get paid pretty damn well.

On another note, the production people I work with are convinced that the FS700 + 7Q is a much more capable camera than any Canon camera, so at least that's a start in Sony's favor.