Softening the HVX
- Thread starter insanityfw
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insanityfw
Ban Me Please!
I must be the biggest nerd, because I started it in the first place. 
, but I assume that was the point of your post in the first place.
hazelnut gecko
, but I assume that was the point of your post in the first place.hazelnut gecko
insanityfw
Ban Me Please!
I wanted to thank the people that have given some constructive input to my original post. I appreciate people, at least trying to understand what I was getting at.
Simon Wyndham
Well-known member
stabwound said:The whole situation is ironic to the point of weird.
Here we are, scrambling for high definiton formats, sharper lenses etc.... and then finding the picture too sharp.... then scrambling for softening solutions.
Don't get me wrong... I love sharp and high resolution (I like shooting the fabled wrinkle faced fisherman).
Perhaps we don't need anything sharper than the HVX200... varicam and anything better sounds like overkill.
Here's another way of looking at it:
HVX200 = Varicam + promist filter.
Don't mistake 'sharp' for 'detail'. When you turn down the detail citcuits on a camera you are not getting rid of actual detail. You are merely getting rid of electronically added edge enhancement. At HD resolutions there isn't really a need for all that enhancement. If you need that edginess back again it can be added back in post.
Further to this most television sets add their own edge enhancement. Many TV owners just leave their TVs on the default settings. You can imagine the results of a television digitally edge enhancing footage that is already edge enhanced. Ugh.
Simon Wyndham
Well-known member
I just want to add that merely placing a pro-mist filter over the lens is not going to get you a film look. A pro mist merely diffuses the image. If your camera still has the default detail and sharpness settings the promist will merely add a diffused look. Does The Bourne Identity for example look like a soft romantic movie? Nope. Yet it doesn't look any less like film.
The key is balancing the detail circuit setting with the Apeture correction setting in order to soften the mid-frequencies, but leave a little bit of a boost on the high ones.
I have written an article about such settings on my website, but I may just add in some more screen grabs comparing my current settings and the default ones more directly.
The key is balancing the detail circuit setting with the Apeture correction setting in order to soften the mid-frequencies, but leave a little bit of a boost on the high ones.
I have written an article about such settings on my website, but I may just add in some more screen grabs comparing my current settings and the default ones more directly.
Simon Wyndham said:
You are absolutely right, ofcourse.
I was referring to an earlier post, in which the poster said they had to use filters to cut down the sharpness in an HD production shoot.... and how ironic it was.
I believe in grabbing clean detail in the camera to begin with. I wouldn't consider using a pro mist filter under any circumstances, and prefer to do post processing.
But thanks for clarifying "Sharp" versus "Detail".
Aside note: It reminds me of the time my friend purchased a Sony 8 megapixel still camera. She compared the shots to my Canon 10D 6 megapixel DSLR. She remarked how much sharper her pictures were than mine, and how mine looked "soft".
I was about to inform her that:
(1) Her camera, a point and shooter, probably has a factory setting sharpness cranked to the max.
(2) Her 1/8th sensor is noisy as hell, and the grain contributes to the apparent "sharpness".
(3) I prefer to keep my Canon's sharpness at zero, and use Photoshop's unsharp mask filters... on selected areas of the picture.
But I decided against saying anything... didn't want to sour her on her new purchase. Why ruin her day.
insanityfw
Ban Me Please!
Simon Wyndham said:
Thanks Simon and Stabwound for pushing this in the right direction. This type of response is perfect for my technically-challenged mind. It gives me direction in the ways in which I should be doing my research and such.
Best,
jason
socot97
Member
stabwound said:I was referring to an earlier post, in which the poster said they had to use filters to cut down the sharpness in an HD production shoot.... and how ironic it was.
I believe in grabbing clean detail in the camera to begin with. I wouldn't consider using a pro mist filter under any circumstances, and prefer to do post processing.
I don't understand the irony?
Filters are used in the film and HD world extensively. Again it is the detail that matters and what people are trying to get rid of is the percieved sharpness. The filters are not getting rid of detail.
Of course filters are not going to give you the film look. That's like saying just using a DVX alone will give you a film look. I think most people understand this.
Personally I like to control the look as much as I can from my side before it goes in to post. But that's just me, your way is perfectly fine too.
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The members on this site have a very wide range of experience, and many come here with questions. Somtimes the questions can seem obvious to some of us, but that is no reason to cut people down, or say they don't deserve to buy a camera because they don't know this or that. A tool does not make the carpenter, but if you give a passionate wannabe carpenter a tool he will learn how to use it. And if he doesn't, well...it's his dime. At least it's not the Viper or Dalsa.
When you've kicked around here long enough, you'll see Pookie likes his pedestal. His consistency is kinda endearing.
Asking about softness is an expansive question, which takes many different fields of the craft into play, so there is no easy answer (not that that's what you were asking for). I think you were just opening the topic for discussion, and wanted real world experience/tips, instead of text book replies.
Let me qualify - I haven't done alot of HD work, but a couple techniques have been useful to get a more "soft-light" look, for example : using ND grads indoors, Kino's for close-ups, and pumping light through unbleached Muslin. Just a few tips that seemed to work, and I'm sure others who have done more HD could be of more help. Also, a great place to start is to look at how classical painters achieved it, then apply those techniques in the technical realm.
I know where you're coming from (going from writing to directing), so good luck mate :beer:
Cheers.
Asking about softness is an expansive question, which takes many different fields of the craft into play, so there is no easy answer (not that that's what you were asking for). I think you were just opening the topic for discussion, and wanted real world experience/tips, instead of text book replies.
Let me qualify - I haven't done alot of HD work, but a couple techniques have been useful to get a more "soft-light" look, for example : using ND grads indoors, Kino's for close-ups, and pumping light through unbleached Muslin. Just a few tips that seemed to work, and I'm sure others who have done more HD could be of more help. Also, a great place to start is to look at how classical painters achieved it, then apply those techniques in the technical realm.
I know where you're coming from (going from writing to directing), so good luck mate :beer:
Cheers.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Well said.socot97 said:The members on this site have a very wide range of experience, and many come here with questions. Somtimes the questions can seem obvious to some of us, but that is no reason to cut people down, or say they don't deserve to buy a camera because they don't know this or that. A tool does not make the carpenter, but if you give a passionate wannabe carpenter a tool he will learn how to use it. And if he doesn't, well...it's his dime. At least it's not the Viper or Dalsa.
socot97 said:
If you don't find the situation ironic then it's your personal perception. We're all entitled to our own. I simply said I prefer post work to that of using filters. If you didn't like a shot with a filter, you're stuck. No way to "unfilter" it.... except for a reshoot.
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this: My understanding that filters such as "softening, starburst... or other special effect filters" will reduce detail by reducing contrast. I bought a cheap non multicoated Tiffen UV filter for my Canon L zoom. Contrast took a dive. Shadow detail was lost, as was highlight because they flared.
I traded the filter in for a more expensive Hoya and the problem went away. I don't like filter... but that's my bag. Use whatever works for you.
The members on this site have a very wide range of experience, and many come here with questions. Somtimes the questions can seem obvious to some of us, but that is no reason to cut people down, or say they don't deserve to buy a camera because they don't know this or that. A tool does not make the carpenter, but if you give a passionate wannabe carpenter a tool he will learn how to use it. And if he doesn't, well...it's his dime. At least it's not the Viper or Dalsa.
Good words, and I fully agree.
Though you should be directing the message to someone else. I haven't put anybody down. If anything, I was defending the original poster who WAS being put down.
socot97
Member
Hey Stabwound,
Sorry if you took that last part as directed toward you. I tried putting a line of x's to indicate that it was a new thought, not toward you.
I fully respect you wanting to keep your picture clean for post. I was just saying that it is done and that it doesn't degrade the image..................much
Personally I dont like a Barbara Walters soft look, mostly I just use a 1/2 black pro-mist, and adjust my in-camera detail and skin tone settings for taste.
Sorry if you took that last part as directed toward you. I tried putting a line of x's to indicate that it was a new thought, not toward you.
I fully respect you wanting to keep your picture clean for post. I was just saying that it is done and that it doesn't degrade the image..................much
Personally I dont like a Barbara Walters soft look, mostly I just use a 1/2 black pro-mist, and adjust my in-camera detail and skin tone settings for taste.
insanityfw
Ban Me Please!
socot97 said:
I don't think there is any choice, but to soften the hell out of Barbara, bless her heart.
Not the kind of softness I was talking about
Thanks again everybody for your thoughts and ideas. I really do like coming here even if it means getting insulted every once and a while. All worth it.
D_and_G, I will make notes of your ideas for shooting HD and play around with them when I get the camera in my hands.
After all my nervousness, the irony is that I feel that I still need to step up to HD for the Sci-fi style that I'm looking for in my next feature, but even more over I need to be cornered and challenged as much as possible and jumping in with both feet will do the trick.
I'm going to shoot some teasers and opening sequences for my project in January, more for fun so it will give me a chance to test the waters and then for full production I will not be the DP, so that will help a bit to have somebody confident in what they're doing.
Again, the reason I come here is to learn about technicall things that i don't know and you guys help out every time.
Thanks again,
J.
socot97 said:Hey Stabwound,
Sorry if you took that last part as directed toward you. I tried putting a line of x's to indicate that it was a new thought, not toward you.
I fully respect you wanting to keep your picture clean for post. I was just saying that it is done and that it doesn't degrade the image..................much
Personally I dont like a Barbara Walters soft look, mostly I just use a 1/2 black pro-mist, and adjust my in-camera detail and skin tone settings for taste.
Scott:
Sorry I got huffy.
But I must admit... most of my filter experience comes from still film and digital cameras (el cheapo)... I've never used anything like a pro-mist.... maybe I'll be really surprised at what expensive filters can do.
I'm not challenging anything you or the industry pros on what tools to use. I suspect that one day, when and if the need comes, I'll be happily using filters and whatever works to get the job done.
:thumbsup: